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November 5, 2019, 07:56 AM | #26 | |
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Some snipped.
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I would think it would be in the department's best interest to make sure these 'tools' are in good working order..even if the officer doesn't care..
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November 5, 2019, 08:45 AM | #27 |
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Not an LEO. All IO know is that a friend who was responsible for private gun club ranges said "dont ever let cops shoot on your range."
He must have had a bad experience w/ some dept(s)? Few yrs ago wife and I were in our pick up camper at the range. Stayed overnight after Sundays match and planned on touring the aea for a few days in camper. Fairly early Mon am, knock on the camper door and it was a LEO who advised us that they would start shooting soon. Hadnt heard/noticed several patrol cars had arrived. Shooting began, I finished breakfast in the camper and then took my coffee out and observed the shooting. At a cease fire I asked "where are the donuts?" WOW-- one fellow laughed, the 'boss' just looked disgusted at me. The laugher told me later "you asked the wrong question of that officer." Last edited by langenc; November 5, 2019 at 08:51 AM. |
November 5, 2019, 04:14 PM | #28 |
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Issued firearms are kept with the officer, just like a flashlight or a set of handcuffs. They could be kept in the officer's locker at work........where he will then (hopefully) transition to his off-duty weapon before leaving. Or, some officers take them home with them. All depends.
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November 23, 2019, 10:29 AM | #29 | |
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"Sniper" training for most LE departments consisted of the Remington Armorers course. No shooting just the armorers course. The SWAT team in most departments I have seen is an ego club for the Department good ol'boy click. That being said, there are some very professional SWAT teams in LE but they are not the norm. |
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November 23, 2019, 11:00 AM | #30 | |
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November 23, 2019, 11:33 AM | #31 | |
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November 24, 2019, 02:30 AM | #32 |
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From my perspective, my state only requires one qualification per year. The qualification course must be with every firearm potentially carried, and a day and night shoot on pistols (night shoot for long guns is not required). A 30 round course is approved (30 day, 30 night), so technically 60 rounds pistol and 30 rounds for the long gun. My agency in addition usually does a combat course or live round shoot house a few times a year. I would say another 100 rounds or so fired during that training. Also there often are open range days for practice, probably every couple of months. Every officer that shows up will get a couple hundred rounds. Very few show up to open range days. The guys often still practice in their off time, it's just more convenient to practice in off time than to travel to the range on open range days that may not fit in their schedule.
I will say that about 1/2 of my agency are past time shooters, and they will get practice in on their off time at least some. I would rate them as formidable if they ever had to use their firearm. Probably 1/4 are what I would classify as skilled shooters. A few of us reload and shoot quite often. Most other agencies I know come close to parity with my agency. 1/2 of the officers aren't really "gun people" in that they don't shoot regularly, but they still know what they're doing with a firearm. My agency requires a minimum firearm qualification that exceeds the State minimum standard. We have given conditional offers to candidates who just could not qualify to our standard and they had to be released. On this topic I also think it appropriate to note that while some officers may not train to a standard of proficiency that many would deem appropriate here on TFL, they do have an advantage to a degree. Officers that work a rough beat and are often placed in stressful situations have a stress tolerance far higher than the average person. After all they got in 4 or 5 foot chases and a couple of fights over the past month. So while some skilled static shooters may shoot far better than an officer that doesn't practice very often, that officer is far more accustomed to stress and may perform much better in a life or death situation than the skilled static shooter. Note that I am not describing every officer with that statement though. The guys that hang their hat on writing tickets to the morning and evening commuters don't usually face a ton of stress, at least not routinely. Coincidentally those ticket writers in my experience are also often not gun people. Those are the officers that worry me with firearms proficiency.
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November 24, 2019, 11:41 AM | #33 |
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I know very little actually about LE firearms training. Friend in Montana years ago on the State Patrol that didn't like shooting. Only gun he owned was his service revolver! He told me the only time it's ever out of the holster is at yearly qualifying, which he generally flubbed the first time. I spent eight years in the Air Force, three of those years oversea's. While there I got to work on our support base's rifle range. Generally speaking, if we had to depend on the Air Force to defend us with firearms that don't fly, we're gonna get our butt's kicked. Once a year qualification and, especially higher ranking NCO's, I'm surprised they live through a couple hours at the range, they are normally, terrible with any type firearm. Doesn't surprise me to read the LE agency's are not a lot different. But in their line of work, a firearm can save a life, even their own and still cops that basically can't shoot. They only reason they are a cop is at the time they needed a job I think! Especially in LE I think a huge effort should be put into firearms training, it could save someone's life, maybe their's! Those cops that do take the time and make an effort. If it never save's anyone's life but your own, it's worth the effort! Long as I'm on the prod let me attack something even worse. Over weight cops. It is not reassuring to me to see a grossly overweight cop that most likely lacks the ability to defend himself physically. Unbelievable how many overweight cop's I see out there. The appearance of a cop should reassure everyone in the area!
I recall years ago in New York City I stopped in a small store for something. While I ws there a silent alarm went off. As I went out two NYC cops walked in the door and shoved me back into the store. While waiting to see what was going on, I noticed the firearm of one cop. It was so rusted I doubt it would have fired if he needed it to. Not what I'd call confidence inspiring! To those other cops out there that keep in shape and actually know how to use their guns and care for them, I hope you realize I'm not lumping you in with these other's. Police force's should be run like special force's units! The sight of a police officer should inspire a certain amount of confidence! |
November 24, 2019, 12:04 PM | #34 | |
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November 24, 2019, 12:15 PM | #35 | |
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November 24, 2019, 12:18 PM | #36 | |
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November 24, 2019, 07:47 PM | #37 |
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I've worked on a few law enforcement agencies as a sworn peace officer and I was a sergeant in the Marine Corps. The comment regarding expectations that law enforcement be on par with military special operations gave me a giggle.
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November 26, 2019, 06:01 PM | #38 | |
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November 27, 2019, 08:24 AM | #39 |
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When you 'turned it in', was it inspected, cleaned by somebody? If you had to turn it in when you left, how did you clean it?
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November 28, 2019, 07:09 PM | #40 |
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When I turned in the guns that belonged to the departments/agencies I was leaving they (the guns) were already clean. I always cleaned my guns after using them and if not recently used at various intervals between use. If they weren't then inspected after being returned, shame on them.
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December 17, 2019, 03:40 AM | #41 |
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I've worked for one agency full time and three agencies part time in my career (which is almost 40 years)
When I first started, we all went to the Sheriff's Dept range once a month and shot some kind of PPC type qual course that involved shooting from 7 to 25 yards. The courses of fire were all 50 rounds. We had to shoot a minimum of 9 times in a year (450 rounds -- if you shot every month you shot 600 rnds in a year) After a few years we switched to having a full day of inservice training each quarter. About half of each day was shooting. We shot 60 to 100 rnds of handgun each time. With the M870 shotgun, it was always 5 00 buckshot on steel targets, 5 slugs on paper targets and 10 rounds of bird shot, sometimes on clay pigeons and sometimes on steel targets. When we replaced the shotguns with AR-15 pattern rifles, we usually shot 30 to 50 rounds each training session. The off-duty gun course required 30 rounds and you had to qual with any off duty guns once a calendar year. I myself shoot 250 rounds a month in practice with my duty gun (currently a Glock 22). I occasionally shoot in local USPSA and IDPA matches and try to go to one or two shooting classes a year. I have .22 conversions for many of my guns and the .22s get used a lot indoors in the winter. Most of the cops I have worked with over the years NEVER shoot in practice. A few were/are diligent and shoot 50 or 100 rounds in practice before each quarterly training session, but they are in the minority. Generally we do training with Simunitions FX rounds or Air Soft guns about once a year, but we haven't done any of that in the last several years. We are over-due for active shooter response training. We got ballistic shields a few years ago, and usually train with them once a year and probably shoot 30 rounds while doing so.
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December 27, 2019, 11:19 AM | #42 |
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I just retired a year ago. At that time individual officers did 200 rounds of practice and 50 of qualification every 8 weeks for a total of about 1500 a year (pistol). They only did rifle and shotgun qual once a year running about 150 rounds through each at that time.
At the agency I just left you were prohibited from practicing with duty weapon on personal time, which I thought was silly but most officers just owned an identical gun to practice with on their own time. A couple folks didn’t. There were also the “bad kids” who somehow always called in sick on range day but they were a small group. They’d ride it out as long as they could until range staff would desk them until they qualified. On the flip side, one local agency we worked with a lot had what I thought was a cool practice of if you wanted to practice off duty, with your own ammo, you could bill up to 4 hours of overtime a month for your range time. |
December 28, 2019, 01:38 PM | #43 | ||||
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California only requires a single qualification unless you take more than a 3 year break. Quote:
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Glad to see a Department going above and beyond as well as a community willing to fit the bill to achieve a higher level of proficiency than required by the state. |
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January 2, 2020, 01:45 PM | #44 |
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1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency?
Qual: 25 Dept Trg: 0 2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition? Not any longer 3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year? 1 4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis? 0 5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo? 10k
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January 3, 2020, 08:18 PM | #45 | |
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Thanks for what you are doing! KUDOS! |
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January 6, 2020, 07:48 AM | #46 | |
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January 6, 2020, 08:13 AM | #47 | |
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Or a Glock?... tee-hee
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January 6, 2020, 09:28 AM | #48 | ||||
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It is generally the recoil spring assembly that wears out not the barrel. Service contract usually involves the weapons returning at a specific point to higher level maintenance for repair/refurbishment. Quote:
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It is a range.... Last edited by davidsog; January 6, 2020 at 09:38 AM. |
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January 29, 2020, 01:20 AM | #49 |
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In Illinois, it's a 30 round course, once a year. 12 from 3, 12 from 7 and 6 from 15. There is no movement, cover/concealment or night time requirements.
That said, some agencies have stricter agency only requirements. Me personally, besides the required yearly qualification, I take as many shooting classes as I can. I also shoot on my own as often as I can. I probably shoot around 3k rounds a year on my own. No where near that in formal training. |
January 29, 2020, 06:04 PM | #50 |
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That is a significant expense on an Patrolman's salary. It is sad that Departments spend so little on such an important aspect of protecting both the officer and the public.
Agreed, but: 1. I reload, and the cost is only $13/100-rounds and $11.24 for each range session at an indoor range for a total cost of $37.24 per weekly session. 2. It comes off my Taxes.
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