Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor make a bigger hole than a .50 BMG?

TXAZ · December 17, 2017, 02:09 PM

Went shooting yesterday, used an old catalog for the target @ 100 yards. I didn't think the 6.5 Creedmoor would make it through, was pretty confident the .50 would.

Well..... the 6.5 made a much bigger exit hole than the .50 BMG.
Ammo:
6.5: Hornady 147 gr ELD Match
.50BMG Lake City 660 gr Ball

The 6.5 hole is the largest shredding on the top right.
The square on the bottom left is from an FN 5.7 round.
And the two dashed circles are centered on the .50 BMG rounds.

Anyone got a good explanation why the 6.5 produces a much larger exit?

Damon555 · December 17, 2017, 02:13 PM

It appears that the 50 didn't expand so it was 50 cal going in and 50 cal coming out. The 6.5 performed as expected and expanded nicely.

TXAZ · December 17, 2017, 02:24 PM

The 6.5 was a match round not a hunting round, but does have a small plastic nose to shift the center of gravity back slightly.

Wyosmith · December 17, 2017, 02:41 PM

Yup, the 6.5 came apart and the 50 didn't.

You would see a different outcome if you stack up 16" of paper and shoot both rifles again. The 6.5 won't even exit, so it will have NO hole on the back. The 50 will go through, and my yaw some, which may tear a very large hole.

CalmerThanYou · December 17, 2017, 02:50 PM

Interesting....not what I would have expected, Looks like a fun test though.

RC20 · December 17, 2017, 03:05 PM

More likely the 6.5 yawed and the 50 cal did not.

Match ammo is not intended to expand though it can do interesting things.

The early M-16 rounds (55gr?) with the velocity and marginal stability would yaw. Ergo it early wondrous reputation. (the famous watermelon)

Unfortunately it has to do with range and velocity and body types and you can simply poke holes in things as happens now with shorter M-4 and the heavier 62 gr.

I would have expected the 50 cal to do what it did

I would have made no predictions on the 6.5.

Dufus · December 17, 2017, 03:35 PM

The ELD Match bullet still has a lead core and I would expect it to come apart violently since it has a relatively thin jacket.

jmr40 · December 17, 2017, 03:49 PM

Lots of guys are using match ammo from Hornady, Berger, Scenar, and others for hunting and reporting BETTER results than the hunting ammo. Don't confuse match ammo with FMJ. Most of it still expands, just less explosively and a lot of hunters are finding that it penetrates better than many hunting bullets while still expanding.

In this case the match bullet expanded quite well. I'm betting the 50 was FMJ.

Damon555 · December 17, 2017, 05:54 PM

Yep, I've shot many A-max bullets and they expand just fine for a match type projectile.

RIDE-RED 350r · December 17, 2017, 07:00 PM

Not nearly enough material to make the FMJ 50 even begin to expand. The 6.5 probably came out the other end in more than one piece where the 50 came out virtually intact and still able to fly another thousand yards and punch a hole in 1/2" plate steel

RC20 · December 17, 2017, 07:02 PM

I don't buy the 6.5 round exploded (more like disintegrating) . If it had it would have lost its inertia in small pieces.

It looks like my 7mm on a kill that went out the far side sideways

The 50 cal is listed as ball, not AP but its not intended to break apart.

Smoke & Recoil · December 17, 2017, 07:13 PM

What was the first cartridge used ?

First=
Second=
Well, we'd know the third.

And also, that is the best use for a Grainger catalog...most difficult book
ever to look up parts...from a maintenance point of view.

std7mag · December 17, 2017, 09:00 PM

Even though it's a "match" bullet, the plastic( ok resin) tip would still initiate expansion.
It doesn't just sit on top of it ya know.

And to try to compare it with military ball ammo.
Like mating a Great Dane with a Chiwawa.

TXAZ · December 17, 2017, 09:49 PM

Smoke
First was the 6.5 Hornady 147 gr ELD match
Second was (2) .50 BMG Ball (FMJ) 660 gr
Third was a 9mm that made it 1/3 the way the catalog
Fourth was (2) FN5.7mm rounds that made it thru

(Yea I thought it was the best choice of target also.
I do have a .50 Raufoss round I’d love to try out on a string of Grainger’s catalogs. Anybody got a couple they will part with?)

emcon5 · December 18, 2017, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC20

Match ammo is not intended to expand though it can do interesting things.

It may not be intended to, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't. The ELD match is the same bullet as the old AMAX with the newer not-supposed-to-melt tip, and the AMAX is actually an excellent Long Range varmint bullet, or at lest it was in the two I used it for, the .264 140gr and the .224 75 grain.

Not quite as explosive as a dedicated varmint bullet, like a Sierra Blitzking, but still made a mess of prairie dogs.

Double Naught Spy · December 18, 2017, 11:35 AM

Quote:

I don't buy the 6.5 round exploded (more like disintegrating) . If it had it would have lost its inertia in small pieces.

No doubt it was losing inertia, but still has the ability to penetrate quite a bit. I do a good bit of bullet testing on hogs and have seen what sorts of wound channels get produced by different sorts of ammo by necropsying the hogs. You would be amazed at how far some match and frangible bullets can penetrate and what sort of wound channels they can make. They are losing inertia in doing so, but have more than enough to penetrate well in many cases.

The ELD certainly can do that. I found that in the Grendel, it tended to not perform as reliably as I would like in terms of consistency of damage and abandoned its use fairly quickly.

reddog81 · December 18, 2017, 12:50 PM

I'd guess the 6.5 started to slow down and tumble while the 50 just punched right through it.

Shoot a regular sized 80 page magazine with a .22lr and a 9mm. The results will be the same. The 22 will have a large exit hole because it's "slowly" tearing through the last half of the pages, and the 9mm is still trucking along and produces a nice clean hole.

Double Naught Spy · December 18, 2017, 01:51 PM

Quote:

I'd guess the 6.5 started to slow down and tumble while the 50 just punched right through it.

Like the AMAX, it most likely is not tumbling.

T. O'Heir · December 18, 2017, 02:17 PM

"...Ball..." Doesn't expand at all. At 100 yards it hasn't stabilised either. Just goes through. M33 ammo 100 yard velocity is about 2600 FPS out of a 29" barrel.
A 147 ELD Match is running 2567 out of a 24" barrel. And it'll expand a wee bit even as a match bullet. Mind you, it's also lost 128 FPS in that 100 yards.
"...The 22 will..." Have started to disintegrate.

reddog81 · December 18, 2017, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

Like the AMAX, it most likely is not tumbling.

I can't tell for sure from that picture, but it sure looks like the bullet in question is coming through the last half of the book sideways.

TXAZ · December 18, 2017, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reddog81

I can't tell for sure from that picture, but it sure looks like the bullet in question is coming through the last half of the book sideways.

We'll never know, it's gone to recycling heaven.

Wrought · December 20, 2017, 11:29 AM

We'll the 50 is far denser than the 6.5. You should have taped phonebooks tightly together for a more scientific study.. The 6.5 bullet is fragile compared to the .50 and is not meant to hit anything as tough as catalogs or phonebooks. I shot .270 win 130gr bronzetips behind a max load of 4350 into magazines taped together about 1.5ft thick. The performance was shocking, the bullet penetrated about halfway before disintegrating almost entirely except for the bronze tip which was slightly warped and the thin copper jacket base which rolled into a ball. I shot handcast 158 gr lead hollowpoints into the same bulletcatcher and they penetrated roughly 6" but didnt open up more than .40 a standard fmj 38 special load penetrated 3" and opened up to more than twice its original size. Sorry to ramble off topic im done now

December 17, 2017, 02:09 PM	#1
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor make a bigger hole than a .50 BMG? Went shooting yesterday, used an old catalog for the target @ 100 yards. I didn't think the 6.5 Creedmoor would make it through, was pretty confident the .50 would. Well..... the 6.5 made a much bigger exit hole than the .50 BMG. Ammo: 6.5: Hornady 147 gr ELD Match .50BMG Lake City 660 gr Ball The 6.5 hole is the largest shredding on the top right. The square on the bottom left is from an FN 5.7 round. And the two dashed circles are centered on the .50 BMG rounds. Anyone got a good explanation why the 6.5 produces a much larger exit? __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

December 17, 2017, 02:24 PM	#3
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	The 6.5 was a match round not a hunting round, but does have a small plastic nose to shift the center of gravity back slightly. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

December 17, 2017, 02:41 PM	#4
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	Yup, the 6.5 came apart and the 50 didn't. You would see a different outcome if you stack up 16" of paper and shoot both rifles again. The 6.5 won't even exit, so it will have NO hole on the back. The 50 will go through, and my yaw some, which may tear a very large hole. Last edited by Wyosmith; December 17, 2017 at 02:51 PM.

December 17, 2017, 03:05 PM	#6
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	More likely the 6.5 yawed and the 50 cal did not. Match ammo is not intended to expand though it can do interesting things. The early M-16 rounds (55gr?) with the velocity and marginal stability would yaw. Ergo it early wondrous reputation. (the famous watermelon) Unfortunately it has to do with range and velocity and body types and you can simply poke holes in things as happens now with shorter M-4 and the heavier 62 gr. I would have expected the 50 cal to do what it did I would have made no predictions on the 6.5. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

December 17, 2017, 03:49 PM	#8
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,810	Lots of guys are using match ammo from Hornady, Berger, Scenar, and others for hunting and reporting BETTER results than the hunting ammo. Don't confuse match ammo with FMJ. Most of it still expands, just less explosively and a lot of hunters are finding that it penetrates better than many hunting bullets while still expanding. In this case the match bullet expanded quite well. I'm betting the 50 was FMJ. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

December 17, 2017, 02:13 PM	#2
Damon555 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Posts: 384	It appears that the 50 didn't expand so it was 50 cal going in and 50 cal coming out. The 6.5 performed as expected and expanded nicely.

December 17, 2017, 02:50 PM	#5
CalmerThanYou Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2017 Posts: 323	Interesting....not what I would have expected, Looks like a fun test though.

December 17, 2017, 03:35 PM	#7
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	The ELD Match bullet still has a lead core and I would expect it to come apart violently since it has a relatively thin jacket.

December 17, 2017, 05:54 PM	#9
Damon555 Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Posts: 384	Yep, I've shot many A-max bullets and they expand just fine for a match type projectile.

December 17, 2017, 07:00 PM	#10
RIDE-RED 350r Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2014 Posts: 425	Not nearly enough material to make the FMJ 50 even begin to expand. The 6.5 probably came out the other end in more than one piece where the 50 came out virtually intact and still able to fly another thousand yards and punch a hole in 1/2" plate steel

December 17, 2017, 07:02 PM	#11
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I don't buy the 6.5 round exploded (more like disintegrating) . If it had it would have lost its inertia in small pieces. It looks like my 7mm on a kill that went out the far side sideways The 50 cal is listed as ball, not AP but its not intended to break apart. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

December 17, 2017, 07:13 PM	#12
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 715	What was the first cartridge used ? First= Second= Well, we'd know the third. And also, that is the best use for a Grainger catalog...most difficult book ever to look up parts...from a maintenance point of view. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

December 17, 2017, 09:00 PM	#13
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Even though it's a "match" bullet, the plastic( ok resin) tip would still initiate expansion. It doesn't just sit on top of it ya know. And to try to compare it with military ball ammo. Like mating a Great Dane with a Chiwawa.

December 17, 2017, 09:49 PM	#14
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	Smoke First was the 6.5 Hornady 147 gr ELD match Second was (2) .50 BMG Ball (FMJ) 660 gr Third was a 9mm that made it 1/3 the way the catalog Fourth was (2) FN5.7mm rounds that made it thru (Yea I thought it was the best choice of target also. I do have a .50 Raufoss round I’d love to try out on a string of Grainger’s catalogs. Anybody got a couple they will part with?) __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

December 18, 2017, 12:50 PM	#17
reddog81 Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2014 Location: Iowa Posts: 1,635	I'd guess the 6.5 started to slow down and tumble while the 50 just punched right through it. Shoot a regular sized 80 page magazine with a .22lr and a 9mm. The results will be the same. The 22 will have a large exit hole because it's "slowly" tearing through the last half of the pages, and the 9mm is still trucking along and produces a nice clean hole.

December 18, 2017, 02:17 PM	#19
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...Ball..." Doesn't expand at all. At 100 yards it hasn't stabilised either. Just goes through. M33 ammo 100 yard velocity is about 2600 FPS out of a 29" barrel. A 147 ELD Match is running 2567 out of a 24" barrel. And it'll expand a wee bit even as a match bullet. Mind you, it's also lost 128 FPS in that 100 yards. "...The 22 will..." Have started to disintegrate. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 20, 2017, 11:29 AM	#22
Wrought Member Join Date: February 11, 2016 Posts: 96	We'll the 50 is far denser than the 6.5. You should have taped phonebooks tightly together for a more scientific study.. The 6.5 bullet is fragile compared to the .50 and is not meant to hit anything as tough as catalogs or phonebooks. I shot .270 win 130gr bronzetips behind a max load of 4350 into magazines taped together about 1.5ft thick. The performance was shocking, the bullet penetrated about halfway before disintegrating almost entirely except for the bronze tip which was slightly warped and the thin copper jacket base which rolled into a ball. I shot handcast 158 gr lead hollowpoints into the same bulletcatcher and they penetrated roughly 6" but didnt open up more than .40 a standard fmj 38 special load penetrated 3" and opened up to more than twice its original size. Sorry to ramble off topic im done now