Helping Inlaws Settle an estate - Need Help ID'ing 5 long guns

[laxin213]

Hello all,



New to your forums. I have been into shooting and shooting sports competing in .22 small-bore 3 position in high school, shooting clays and hunting later in life. So I'm known around the family as somewhat of a "gun guy". In-laws had a death in the extended family, came to me to help with some older guns he had. Some was simpler stuff, but these 5 have me pretty baffled as to what we have. He was in WWII and did travel a bit. What I'm trying to do is make a spreadsheet inventory of what we have, then look on gun-broker for completed sales of comparable guns.. Then we have a number in our head to go to a dealer with so we're not getting ripped off. I'm not in charge of the estate, but we might sell some guns on GB as well - I've bought and sold on there before.



So thanks for the looks and here are some photos and details:



#4 - Long rifle Semi-Auto, Magazine fed. Marked .35 REM on action. I think it's a Remington model 8? Not sure what finish (Standard, Special, Peerless, Expert, Premier)

PHOTO ALBUM OF FIREARM 4




#5 - Long rifle, Single shot, Bolt Action Rifle. Vertical bolt. Octagonal barrel, lots of engraving on it. Marked "Westphal In Peine"

PHOTO ALBUM OF FIREARM 5



#6 - Long rifle, Bolt action, Magazine fed. Guessing around .308. Round loop in rear of action - was this for securing to self ie: paratrooper?

PHOTO ALBUM OF FIREARM 6



#11 - Double barrel shotgun, break action. Marked "Konigl" Engraved.

PHOTO ALBUM OF FIREARM 11



#13 - Single shot short rifle. Octagonal barrel .22. I was thinking it is an older example of a child's gun.

PHOTO ALBUM OF FIREARM 13

[Magnum Wheel Man]

are you sure #6 is semi auto??? looks like a straight pull bolt action Swiss K-31 or similar...

#11 looks like the Husquevarna under lever double I was looking a Cabelas a couple years ago...

[kbuilta]

#6 looks like a sporterized Schmidt-Rubin Model 1899. As noted previously, straight pull bolt, not semi-auto.

[laxin213]

Thanks for the replies guys. I missed that on #6. I'm thinking it probably is a "straight pull bolt action" or some variant of bolt action that is unknown to me.

[laxin213]

Originally Posted by kbuilta

#6 looks like a sporterized Schmidt-Rubin Model 1899. As noted previously, straight pull bolt, not semi-auto.

I'm looking at the Wikipedia page on the variants. It looks very simlair and you pegged the vertical bolt right on. There is a 1905 carbine model and a 1899/1900 short rifle. So I need to get the overall length. Thanks for the ID!

[bumnote]

#6 appears to be a sporterized Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 1896/11 Bolt action, 7.5x55, dectachable magazine. The loop is the safety. Pull back and rotate counter clockwise for safe, can also be used to cock rifle and also functions for bolt disassembly.
I believe it's the Schmidt-Rubin 1896/11, because of the darker color of the little 'barrel' like pieces on the charging handle. The website above will help you out.

[bumnote]

On second glance, it's a Schmidt-Rubin 1889 or 1889/96.

Look at the magazine release on the bottom of the stock, that's a feature on the Schmidt-Rubin 1889's and 1889/96's.

You need to examine the receiver and bolt. On the 1889/96, the locking logs on the bolt were made slightly larger and moved forward .79" for greater strength and a slightly shorter receiver length. There's a picture of the two different bolts in the site I linked above.
They're also not 7.5x55, they're7.5x53.5 Swiss (GP90 & GP 90/03) / 7.5x54.5 Swiss (GP90/23), they're designed for blackpowder not modern smokeless powder.

[CowTowner]

No 4 is indeed either a Remington Model 8 or 81. Semi-auto center fire rifle. 35 Remington was certainly one of the rounds chambered for that.

[mapsjanhere]

Nr. 13 looks like a Flobert rifle, proof marks are Belgian. Nr 5 looks like a Chassepot system adapted to center fire, probably German made in the 1870.

[sfwusc]

If you sell off the collection you should post it in the wanted ads. Avoid GB fees.

Lots of C&R folks here.

[Jim Watson]

Stop me if you have heard this one before.

No 4 is a Remington Model 81; .35 Rem. ammo available. (A Model 8 has a straight grip.)

No 5 may well be a Chassepot sporter. Heaven knows the caliber, probably something European, exotic, and obsolete.

No 6 is indeed one or another Schmidt-Rubin that has been "sporterized" by cutting down and varnishing the military stock. It looks like the magazine box has been lost off of it. Original caliber was 7.5 Swiss but a number were roughly converted to .308 and even to .30-30.

No 11 is a Lefacheaux action shotgun. Some were made with steel barrels but most have Damascus barrels and are not considered safe to shoot with smokeless shells or even with black powder unless in tip-top condition.

No 13 is a Flobert of the "Remington" type. Never very strong to start with, this one looks kind of beat up. A CB cap shooter at most and better left a wallhanger. The 1901 Sears catalog says of such guns: "We do not recommend or guarantee Flobert rifles. Buy a good rifle, it will pay in the end. We recommend (Peiper) and (Stevens.)"

[swan_derek]

Some of the rifles look very nice!
I live in your area, will my C&R be enough?

[laxin213]

Everyone thanks for the replies. I'm compiling a list and will advise in next steps

[leadcounsel]

No 6 is indeed one or another Schmidt-Rubin that has been "sporterized" by cutting down and varnishing the military stock. It looks like the magazine box has been lost off of it. Original caliber was 7.5 Swiss

I agree with number 6. Much of the value is probably lost due to the sporterizaton and missing magazine. Similar K31 and K1911s are on the market in the $300 range in original condition to give you and idea. A sporterized may bring a little less or more, depending on the condition and professionalism of the job.

Not sure about any of the others. You'll want a gunsmith to headspace these all with gauges to determine the calibers.

[Scorch]

Number 4 is a Remington Model 81
Number 5 is a Mauser 1871 action reworked into a hunting rifle.
Number 6 is a sporterized Schmidt-Rubin rifle in 7.5X55 Swiss.
Number 11 is an exposed hammer side-by-side, rear action, probably Belgian, probably proofed for black powder. Without seeing the proof marks, it is not possible to get any closer than that.
Number 13 is a Flobert rifle, a rimfire rifle cheaply produced and sold by the millions for indoor target shooting. Don't try to fire modern rimfire ammo in it.

[bumnote]

#6 is not 7.5x55 unless it's been rebarreled. It's a Schmidt-Rubin 1889 or 1889/96, entirely different caliber. After looking it up in my Schmidt-Rubin book, I'm all but certain it's a sporterized Schmidt-Rubin 1889 or 1889/96, see post #7 as to why.
Some 1889/96's were rebarreled for 7.5x55, but I'd worry about pressure and would never use that rifle if by some odd chance is was rebarreled for 308. The receiver isn't as strong as a K31.

[Mike Irwin]

The GP90 round was very similar to the later GP 90/23 round, but Bumnote is correct that modern 7.5 Swiss ammunition should NEVER be fired in an unconverted rifle as dangerous chamber pressures could result.

[Jim Watson]

One reference I found listed the GP 90 as 7.5x53.5 vs GP 11 7.5x55.
More importantly, about 37000 psi vs 47000.

[Mike Irwin]

Yep, the GP 90 was originally a black powder/semi-smokeless loading, and was slightly shorter, and used a paper patched bullet in its original iterations and was adopted with the Model 1889 rifle and later the Model 1896.

The GP 90/23 was the final iteration of this cartridge, adopted in 1923, and did away with both the paper patched bullet and the semi-smokeless powder.

There's some disagreement as to whether the shoulder is a different shape or not from the later 7.5x54.5, the GP11, which is what we know as the 7.5 Swiss.

The GP11 used jacketed bullets, smokeless powder, and what I THINK was the first military/commercial non-corrosive priming. It was adapted to the Model 1911 rifle and to modified 1896 rifles, known as the 96/11.

The GP11 was never authorized for use in the Model 1889 rifle, and can only be used in adapted rifles, the Model 1896/11, although I've seen more than one recommendation that 1896/11s really aren't up to a steady diet of GP11 rounds.

[Jim Watson]

An Army can take a different approach to obsolete weapons. Issue them to home guard or line of communication troops who will not be shooting much except in dire emergency. If it breaks, you can probably get another off a casualty. If it blows up with hotter ammo, well, it probably won't hurt you as bad as getting shot by an enemy.
Or use them in training and burn up stocks of their obsolete ammo.

We enthusiasts expect them to perform as designed and should provide them with proper ammo. As witness the constant debate over converted Spanish Mausers.

[Mike Irwin]

Most of the 1889s, and the 1896s that weren't converted, were surplussed and used in competitive shooting events.

[laxin213]

First of all thank you everyone for the replies and all the knowledge.

Time got away from me a bit, my basement flooded twice and I redid the sump pumps, the check valves, re-piped some did lots of clean up. We had a vacation that was already scheduled and paid for so we went on that and found out then that the wife is pregnant with our first child!. So helping out my uncle on this project to sell these guns took a big back burner.

I have a list going of what we have. I'm attaching it, and links to a photo gallery of almost all the guns. If anyone wants to chime in with valuation opinions, I'd be grateful. I looked down nearly all the barrels and they all look good. I realize that I it's really hard to put a value on a gun without seeing it so even a range of say "Gun X is about $100-$175" something like that would be great. I have sold on Gunbroker in the past some of my guns, but with these I have no real idea of a starting point in value since I didn't buy them to begin with so I can't say what I had into them. I will definitely ask my uncle to consider selling on this forum because the GB fees are kind of high. The only one my uncle might hold onto is Firearm 14 - Winchester Semi Auto Shotgun, Winlite.

Thanks guys, and see attached photo of the inventory list and the link below for all the firearms in their respective gallery.

Photo album Gallery of all the Firearms

[FITASC]

Here is one tip - when posting photos of guns, especially European ones - the proof marks are critical and clear pics of any inscriptions on the barrels (or you typing it exactly as it is)
Nice looking stuff for the most part.............

[gyvel]

An even better tip: Have at least one (preferably two) full length photos of the gun(s) from each side.

[laxin213]

Hi Guys,

I'm prepared to offer for sale (through an FFL) firearms 5 , 6 , 11. I will work to ship with the FFL accross state lines, or if you're local to Buffalo, NY (or willing to travel to) you can view in person. In my state even an in person sale requires an FFL, and buyer pays FFL fee for in person FYI.. I'd like to list in the buy / sell / trade sub forum here, but I lack the required 25 posts. You can look me up for reputable trading feedback on eBay (Laxin213), I have over 1300+ positive transactions and 100% positive feedback. I am also on GB under the same name, but I only have 2 trades, both positive.

So in the coming week or so they will be listed on GB (unless someone contacts me here first). I am going to heed the advice and get much better pictures when posting on GB.

Asking prices:

#5 - $1200 or best offer
#6 - $700 or best offer
#11 $1400 or best offer