9mm vs 7.62x39

[keithdog]

If I do get an AR again, and now I'm leaning more heavily toward that, it'll be a 20" set up specifically for slinging 55g .223 downrange. Prob the Federal bulk value pack (100 rounds from Walmart at $25).

[keithdog]

I'm always well enough pleased with minute-of-man accuracy btw. If you're not, that's fine, I respect your feelings. I don't feel it super likely I'll need a SHTF gun and I'm more interested in having ANYTHING acceptable for the event. the 7.62 seems a good compromise and the AK seems a solid choice for a man who isn't backed up by the US military and it's vast web of support and supplies. Then again, I'm a fool and I make poor choices.

[Fishbed77]

What you guys are saying reinforces my previous assumption that 7.62 must have superior accuracy- Fishbed, not to be a dick, but to say I have a poor grasp on the meaning of accuracy is disregarding my question altogether. I have a very poor grasp on the accuracy of AK's or PCC's out past 100 yards, true enough. My question wasn't about accuracy in general, it was a question as to whether or not the standard AKM (think wasr-10, arsenal, I'm not going fancy and I don't care if anyone thinks me a fool for not doing so) will be likely to put out (meaningfully) tighter groups than 9mm. Some folks say AK's can't do better than 6" groups at a hundred.

I certainly do not meaning to sound condescending, just reflecting on what has been posted. Also, those claiming "AK's can't do better than 6" groups at a hundred" are either very poor shooters, or are shooting very poor quality rifles or builds with shot-out barrels. Reference above my statement about my Saiga, which was made on the same line using the same barrel as a modern AK-103. It's ~2.5 MOA dispersion mean it is quite capable of shooting ~2.5" groups at 100 yards.

T O Heir said:
Sighted in at 100 yards, that 7.62 x 39 will drop ~ 7" at 200. That 9mm drops about 12" at 100, never mind 200. No data for that distance. Mind you, an AK isn't accurate enough to bother with shooting at 200 yards.

Fishbed said:
If a rifle round is accurate (say, a 1 minute-of-angle dispersion) at 100 yards, it will typically be as accurate at 200, 300, 400, or greater yards

Those statements appear to contradict, or do I not understand?

You are confusing bullet drop with accuracy. All bullets eventually drop due to gravity. They can still be accurate. The bullet drop of 7.62x39mm becomes pretty severe beyond 300 meters as it runs out of energy. 9x19mm even more so. I disagree with T O Heir' s statement that the AK is too inaccurate to shoot beyond 200 yards. Even conscripts were trained to shoot beyond that.

[Sharkbite]

I don't like the AR because as a prepper gun, I don't want to worry about having a whole bunch of bs set aside like replacement pins and o rings and yadda yadda yadda.

Dude. You dont need boxes of spare parts for a basic AR. With a COUPLE of small parts stored in the pistol grip, an AR can run damn near forever.

The whole AR’s are not worthy of a SHTF gun is a load of crap. Look at the HUGE numbers of M4 rifles that are beat to crap EVERYDAY overseas. My issued M4 was thrown around the back of a Suburban everyday and drug around northern Iraq for 7years straight. Shot at least 2x a month in training plus 4 quals a year. NEVER a hiccup or broken part.

[Fishbed77]

I don't like the AR because as a prepper gun, I don't want to worry about having a whole bunch of bs set aside like replacement pins and o rings and yadda yadda yadda. That's probably nonsense. I had an ar that was great.

Honesty, that is nonsense. As a "prepper gun" an AR makes as much sense as anything. AR parts and 5.56x45mm ammo are much more common in the US than AK parts (which are not 100% standardized, and can vary depending on country of manufacture) and 7.62x39mm ammo.

The only o-ring you might find on an AR is a Crane extractor o-ring, and the rifle will run fine without this (most ARs don't even have them). The gas rings on an AR bolt typically last tens of thousands of rounds (or more), so that will never be an issue in a survival/"prepper" situation. There are no pins that are wear items on an AR, other than the possibility of a firing pin breaking, but this can happen on an AK as well.

The AK is not some mythological beast. It is a rifle that requires cleaning, maintenance, and lubrication, just like every other rifle.

[stagpanther]

Dude. You dont need boxes of spare parts for a basic AR. With a COUPLE of small parts stored in the pistol grip, an AR can run damn near forever.

The whole AR’s are not worthy of a SHTF gun is a load of crap. Look at the HUGE numbers of M4 rifles that are beat to crap EVERYDAY overseas. My issued M4 was thrown around the back of a Suburban everyday and drug around northern Iraq for 7years straight. Shot at least 2x a month in training plus 4 quals a year. NEVER a hiccup or broken part.

+++1 ^^^

[pblanc]

These days, you can buy a quality AR for less than a decent AK. About the only spare part I keep for my ARs is a spare firing pin retaining pin (cotter pin) that costs about a dollar. If you are really paranoid, you could keep a spare bolt carrier group around.

In my admittedly somewhat limited experience, ARs shooting decent 5.56x45 ammunition are a bit more accurate than AKs shooting decent 7.62x39 ammo, but when comparing quality rifles, the difference is not that huge inside of 300 yards. The problem with evaluating relative accuracy is that accuracy depends not only on the rifle but the shooter and the ammunition. And a lot of 7.62 ammo is somewhat less than decent, insofar as accuracy is concerned.

The open sights on the AR also tend to allow for more accurate shooting by most than the open sights on the AK do. Many ARs will shoot 2 MOA or better with good ammo and a decent optic. I have heard of some AKMs shooting sub 2 MOA groups, but 3-4 MOA seems somewhat more common. Of course, some rifles do better and some do worse.

AKMs seem to do well generally with steel-case ammo. Many ARs do so as well, but some do not, so ammunition costs may be a bit less for AKMs, at least as far as practice ammo is concerned. Quality self-defense ammo is going to be pricey for either.

I would not describe modern ARs as being "finicky". They may be slightly less tolerant of absolute abuse than AKMs, but generally speaking they are reliable when used with decent ammunition.

[marine6680]

Before you get an AK, watch the 5000rd tests from AK Operators Union on YouTube.

Not many make it through their tests without at least minor issues, if not serious issues. Problems with the bolt lockup that lead to the head space becoming dangerously out of spec was not uncommon.

If you want an AK that is EOTWAWKI ready... You will be spending at least $1000 on it. Generally the ones made in certain (not all) former Soviet Bloc countries will be the most rugged and reliable. All of the rifles that are imported must go through a conversion process to get them into the familiar AK configuration. Russian made rifles are not available new any longer either.


A rifle that did make it through the 5000rd testing without any issues, and was still going strong... A PSA Freedom line AR.

So there is the rub... A well made basic AR can be had for $500 (current on sale price of the PSA Freedom models) That will last through any amount of ammo you would reasonably expect to ever be able to put through it in a true EOTW scenario.


If you really want to put 5.56 through an AK... Get a Galil. Well made rifles from my understanding. They are at their heart just a reskinned AK.


As far as spare parts... Small parts on an AK can break just as easily as on any other rifle. A few basic small parts and springs is always a good idea is prepping on a goal. And AK parts are harder to come by, at least ones that work in a particular rifle... No set standard exists between the manufacturers.

For an AR, a minimum list of spare parts would be an extra firing pin, a few firing pin retaining pins, a few gas rings, an extractor and extractor spring, and a cam pin. On a quality made rifle, these are not likely to be an issue, but things happen.

Some like to keep an extra bolt (not a full BCG) on hand, for the unlikely event of a broken locking lug or the bolt breaking at the Cam pin hole. A well made milspec bolt isn't likely to fail early in a semi auto rifle though. There are enhanced BCGs for the really paranoid.

The buffer spring should be replaced after 5000rds or so for optimal performance, but it will keep running for much longwr, so it isn't likely going to be an issue in a EOTW situation.

[pblanc]

The advantage of a spare BCG is that you can replace a broken firing pin, firing pin retaining pin, extractor, extractor spring, cam pin, gas ring, or bolt within a few seconds.

[keithdog]

Fine fine fine! You guys have sold me! At least on the viability of the AR platform for my purposes. It DOES meet the most important requirements. PMags are cheap as all get out and they work very well, and basic 55grain or even half decent hollow points aren't THAT expensive for it. I'm very much considering the 20 inch AR, then. A guy in town builds them. Warrior Arms. He built my first AR and it ate steel case the way my hi point carbine does- without so much as a hiccup. I don't want the steel case, though. Unless I get AKM (or SKS). Which I still kind of want. I know the argument "The AR just doesn't feel right" is not a particularly valued one in the realm of self defense, but the feeling is still there, and I'm still listening to it- no need to chastise me for it- that never worked for my parents, I'm sure it won't work for any of you, lol.
Thanks guys.

[stagpanther]

That 7.62 x 25 tokarev soviet tanker's machine pistol was one of the coolest guns I've fired since sliced bread.

Seriously--if you like the idea of soviet ammo but want better accuracy--an AR47 will make you quite happy.

[keithdog]

Marine- The wasr 10 performed very admirably for the AKOU. That's a very inexpensive gun. I don't want to contradict your point (it was solid), but still, it's true. They come with enhanced triggers and chrome lined barrels, which I'm a fan of. Quality mags are as cheap as quality ar mags.
Whatever I get, it will probably serve me equally well in the hopefully unlikely event.
AK isn't wrong. AR isn't wrong. Neither one is right, but I'm torn between them and that great compromise known as the SKS.

[keithdog]

BTW- what y'all think of my close range option that I keep talking about? Looks cool, right? It is pretty fantastically capable at close range. I just don't believe that it's not. This is my go to for inside the home defense if SHTF. Based on all of your advice, gents, it would seem that if I want something for outside the home that provides significantly greater range (ie something that puts much tighter groups on paper at 2-300) I am much better off going AR than AK.

[keithdog]

It's not only cool looking. It's as tacti-cool a 9mm carbine as you can get. I don't care. I like it.

[Bill DeShivs]

Simple-get both.
If you get 2 of each, you don't even need spare parts!

[pblanc]

Although many disagree, I think a pistol caliber carbine makes a splendid home defense weapon for many. I just wouldn't try to use it beyond 100 yards, at least if my life depended on it.

[Sharkbite]

A PCC makes a fine HD long gun, especially if suppressed.

The OP is asking about use past the 100yard mark. They dont make much sense past that distance. Think of them in terms of Shotgun range.

[pblanc]

Originally Posted by keithdog

BTW- what y'all think of my close range option that I keep talking about? Looks cool, right? It is pretty fantastically capable at close range. I just don't believe that it's not. This is my go to for inside the home defense if SHTF. Based on all of your advice, gents, it would seem that if I want something for outside the home that provides significantly greater range (ie something that puts much tighter groups on paper at 2-300) I am much better off going AR than AK.

Well, I guess it depends on just how likely you think it is that you would need to defend yourself with a long gun at 200-300 yards. I personally do not see that as a likely scenario to occur during the remainder of my lifetime, but you may feel differently or your situation might be different.

When it comes to making holes in paper I definitely feel I can make them closer together at ranges of 100 yards or greater with one of my ARs than I can with my AKM. On the other hand, in the unlikely event that I would ever need to pick up a rifle to defend myself at ranges of 100 yards or less, I do believe that the 7.62x39 round is a bit more capable than the 5.56x45. I know that many will disagree.

[Sharkbite]

defend myself at ranges of 100 yards or less, I do believe that the 7.62x39 round is a bit more capable than the 5.56x45. I know that many will disagree.

Entirely depends on what ammo you have loaded in each. With standard milspec fmj, i would agree, and ive seen more then a cpl people shot with both calibers

[Fishbed77]

Before you get an AK, watch the 5000rd tests from AK Operators Union on YouTube.

Not many make it through their tests without at least minor issues, if not serious issues. Problems with the bolt lockup that lead to the head space becoming dangerously out of spec was not uncommon.

On a related note, be sure to Google the "Filthy 14" article. A properly-made AR (in the case of this article, a BCM) will run tens of thousands of rounds with almost no cleaning and the minimum required lubrication.

As marine6680 said, a good AK will survive too, but it almost needs to be a foreign factory-made rifle (VEPR, Saiga, MAK90, and some Arsenals). And almost all of those are quite expensive now, since VEPRs, Saigas, and MAK90s have been banned from importation. The good news is that, aside from the weak wood used in their furniture (easily replaced), current WASRs are quite good rifles, if a little rougher in apperance compared to the other factory-made AKs.

[stagpanther]

You might also want to consider a 300 Blackout pistol if you don't need to knock down elephants past 100 yds. It has plenty of velocity and energy out to 100 yds and is far easier to shoot without a stock than some make it out to be.

[marine6680]

Yeah, my point on the videos is to be sure you pick a good one.

Replacing furniture is easy enough, but it does add to the final cost.

[keithdog]

You guys are all fantastic for chiming in. I really appreciate it. Healthy debate and all these different points of view go a long way for someone like me who is so unsure. I'm still something of a novice.

[bamaranger]

We're so far off track here......the original question was concerning a 9mm carbine v. an AK pattern rifle in 7.62x39 x39mm. "Accuracy" was the concern, with an understandable developing sidebar to "power".

Early on it was mentioned that we were comparing an intermediate rifle cartridge to an pistol cartridge, and a relatively modest pistol round at that by many peoples standards. There is no comparison ballistically, the x39 wins hands down. By a lot.

The matter of accuracy seems a bit confused. Top end AK, top end 9mm carbine, machine rest, stable conditions, they might shoot equally in terms of mechanical accuracy, meaning group size. But "practical accuracy" ie, the ability for a a human shooter to get hits while compensating for wind and distance, on real "targets", the rifle round wins again. It is faster and flatter, and will allow hits much easier past 100 yds. And I'd maintain that stance, even if the AK is a clunker and only 6-8 MOA capable, or worse. The tremendous drop of the 9mm at the longer ranges being discussed will make hits difficult to achieve without walking them in and accurate range estimation. Real targets, either fur or threat, will not stand around and let you shoot at them till you lob one in.

While I'm at it, I can tell you with absolute certainty, that the x39mm cartridge will take medium game cleanly and consistently, well past the 25-50 yds suggested in this post by someone. It is 30-30 class cartridge , generally speaking, and fully as capable as the old classic on deer, hogs, and perhaps small bears. Likewise, the AK and its x39 round are plenty dangerous at ranges past 200 yds.

Good bit of trolling here, c'mon guys.