![]() |
|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
![]() |
#26 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
I'm not a member on that forum and cannot see the post. But for what it's worth, I'm in Georgia. And don't think I'm some wannabe cowboy lookin to shot someone. I'd do everything I could to avoid it and thus, once I do, I'm going to fire. I'm not pointing it and giving the bad guy a choice. He made his choice when he forced me to draw.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#27 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,841
|
Sorry about that. I didn't realize that you had to be a member to see that thread. Try this one.
I'm not accusing you of being either a wannabe, a cowboy, or a wannabe cowboy. However, there are more than a few folks that think if they draw, they have to shoot. Deciding that "if I draw, I'm going to shoot" can land one in hot water fairly quickly.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
![]() |
![]() |
#28 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#29 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
I wasn't offended Spats, no need to apologize. And Wreck-n-Crew, I've heard the same growing up, and what I said is not my derivative of that. What I said is how I feel personally, it's not that I will feel compelled to fire upon pulling my gun. Instead, think of it as I'm simply saying I'll have been forced, in which case I'll have also been forced to fire. I can assure you, it would take more to make me draw than most. Not scared of totin' a whoopin'.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#30 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
|
Quote:
It might well be that in a particular situation you would be justified drawing your gun; it could even be wise to draw your gun. But if before you fire things change, you might not be legally justified in shooting. It appears that some study of the laws relating to the use of force in self defense would be in order. Have a look here and here.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#31 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
Thanks guys. I guess this is just one subject we'll have to disagree on. I can't make my points with words but I'm not talking about a legal situation here, I'm talking about a life and death (what it would take for me to pull my gun). Even if for some reason it was NOT justifiable, I would do it if it meant living. Anyway, we could go into it all night, make scenarios, discuss it, argue, etc. Still doesn't change what I know to be my threshold or tolerance. If I pull, I shoot. Period.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
Can't tell you how many times I have to retract a statement or clarify it with better wording. Happens to most of us sometime or another. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#33 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 31, 2002
Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX)
Posts: 2,169
|
Call the cops first.....
....then consider yourself lucky that you don't have to endure the expenses of legal defense..... ....or finding more carry ammo....
__________________
Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0...... |
![]() |
![]() |
#35 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
It's cool Wreck-n-Crew. Even harder to make a point on an IPhone. Takes too long, haha.
Frank, thanks for the heads up. I know I'll be justified, so it's all good. And let me add, that in the 1-2 seconds it takes for me to know I need to draw and to put my sights on target, if the bad guy turned to run, dropped his weapon, etc, I would not fire. I'm not going to execute someone. However, if at the time my sights are lined up, the threat still exists, I'm firing. There won't be negotiations. I promise this is the last time I try to get my point across. Take it for what it's worth, probably nothing. ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#36 | ||||
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,841
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
#37 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
I don't see where what I said is a "far cry" from what I said initially. I had to expand on it because it was being picked apart and any negative one could draw from it was being exploited. Any reasonable, logical person could have read that and taken it for what I meant, not nit picked it to death.
Finally, concerning the legal consequences: if that was my main concern, I wouldn't carry a gun at all. I'd let myself be mugged or harmed or whatever and hope the legal system did its job against the perp. But since I don't place my faith (or fear) in that system, I carry to defend myself. Judged by 12 or carried by 6. I'll take the first regardless. Anyway, grain of salt. Last edited by Bennyboy; November 20, 2013 at 11:07 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#38 |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,841
|
Nothing was being exploited, Bennyboy. I quoted exactly what you posted. You were simply taken at your words. Now you claim that "reasonable, logical" people would have understood it for what you meant, but not what you said. You said what you said. If you needed to expand to make it more precise, that's fair enough. What you posted is not our fault, though.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
![]() |
![]() |
#39 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
Spats:
Fair enough. I'll expand thoroughly the first time, next time. Thanks, no hard feelings. |
![]() |
![]() |
#40 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
Spats:
In fact, I'd like to apologize. I shouldn't have said anything about being reasonable and logical. I'm sure you are both. I should have said that what I posted was being looked at in a cynical way. Instead of thinking, "he said if he pulls and the guy is begging for his life he is still going to murder him in the streets" it could have been thought of as "he's saying that if he is scared enough to pull his gun, he's going to end the situation as quickly as possible because it must've been very serious". I just don't view my gun as a tool of persuasion. That's all, not saying my way is better than anyone else's, just different I guess. Anyway, sorry again. I wasn't trying to insult anyone. |
![]() |
![]() |
#42 |
Member
Join Date: November 7, 2013
Posts: 30
|
I'll have to read that thoroughly when I have time. But something immediately jumps out. It's not that I think "I have to shoot because I pulled my gun". I think like this, "I pulled my gun because I have to shoot".
Think about it. |
![]() |
![]() |
#43 | ||
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,841
|
Quote:
As for "looking at what you posted in a cynical way," consider it this way: Frank and I looked at what you posted as lawyers do. Frank is a retired attorney, and I'm an actively practicing one. I don't prosecute violent crimes, but I've been in courts enough to know that, if I did, I could make some hay with lines like the ones you posted earlier, pre-clarification. Imagine being the defendant after an SD shooting (& defendant) and taking the stand: Quote:
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#44 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,694
|
If you wait until you have to shoot before you pull your gun you are in serious danger of being behind the proverbial curve.
There are a great many instances where pulling a gun might be justified while pulling the trigger at that moment would not. The standards for presenting a weapon vary by locality but they are not (generally) the same standards as using that weapon. Some states even have verbiage that specifically allows for the presentation of a firearm with the express purpose of preventing the situation from escalating to the point that deadly force is actually warranted. Point being, drawing your firearms and discharging your firearm are only tangentially connected in the sense that it must be drawn before it can be used. Neither justifies the other and drawing does not necessitate use.
__________________
https://ecommercearms.com I am the owner/operator! Ask me for custom prices! No sales tax outside CO! |
![]() |
![]() |
#45 | |||
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
The issue is one of determining when and whether the threat is in fact imminent. For those who are not aware of the history, Dennis Tueller became famous through his conduct of experiments showing that, if one is faced by an assailant armed with a contact weapon, waiting to draw until the attacker was in close enough proximity to use the weapon would not work out well for the defender. The need for that demonstration arose from disputes over when a defender (a police officer, in that case) could lawfully present his weapon. Quote:
I have had to point a gun at violent criminal actors on three different occasions (all indoors) over the years, and in each the mere presentation of the weapon, plus some clear industrial strength coaching, saved the day. I did not present the weapon until I had been faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm, and presenting the weapon took care of the threat. Quote:
Most of us would likely favor that provision, but not everyone does. In one state, a bill providing for the "defensive display of a firearm" was vetoed by the governor, who made dire predictions about the potential effects of such a law. The requirement that a defender be faced with an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm before even mentioning a firearm thus remained in effect. Fortunately her successor signed the bill the second time around. In another state, the legislature reduced the threshold for lawful presentation from one in which deadly force had been necessary to one in which non-deadly physical force would be justified after an unusual set of circumstances. The use of force laws had been re-written, apparently hurriedly, and a high court ruling in an appellate case determined that under the new law, drawing a firearm in self defense was justified only if the defender actually shot the assailant (!). That obviously had not been intended, and the legislature redrafted the law, with many improvements. In one state, and only one that I know of, pointing a gun at someone is legally the same as using deadly force. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
#46 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 6, 2009
Location: Just off Route 66
Posts: 5,067
|
Quote:
I know it might not be the smart thing to do, but I would rather be behind the curve than behind bars. Jim |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#47 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
|
Quote:
And that probably goes double on the Internet where you are speaking to everyone in the world with Internet access. See this article headlined "Bay Area prosecutors increasingly using social media posts in criminal cases" from the 16 August 2013 edition of the Contra Costa Times:
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#48 | |
Staff
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 4,022
|
Quote:
What constitutes necessity does vary.... In some states that means that deadly force is immediately necessary, and in others, non-deadly physical force is the threshold. The subject of when one may lawfully draw and of what pitfalls a citizen may encounter whee he or she is not the first to notify he police are touché upon in this book, which I heartily recommend. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#49 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 8, 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,820
|
Quote:
At the same time their behavior may have warranted a draw by entering your space in a way that is threatening or alarming, but not enough to fire. Knowing the difference can save your life or your freedom. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#50 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,475
|
This thread is continuing to wander off point. The question was whether one should call the police and make a report if he had been force to draw his gun to defend himself, but the assailant broke off before the defender needed to fire his gun.
The answer is "yes." But it looks like no one has anything further to say on the subject. Closed.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|