H4198 same as imr4198

rbf420 · February 19, 2010, 03:54 PM

just wondering if the manufactures makes a different if the numbers are the same EX: imr 4198 vs H-4198 thanks!

SL1 · February 19, 2010, 04:16 PM

There are several different powders that are SIMILAR, that use the same numbers with different prefixes because they are produced by different manufacturers. If you look at the loading data for, say the two 4198s or the three 4350s, you will see that the maximum charge weights typically differ by enough to matter. So, make sure that you have proper data for the powder you are actually using.

SL1

**Unclenick** · February 19, 2010, 05:07 PM

SL1 is correct. The processes are not the same. H4198 is actually repackaged AR2207, an ADI powder. ADI is part of the Thales Group in Australia. It employs their special deterrent system that is supposed to make the powder less sensitive to temperature variation.

The IMR 4198 product is an older process and chemistry, but one that has proven to be remarkably effective. I shot more cloverleafs over a range of temperatures (probably about 50 degrees to 90 degrees) than I can shake a fist at using IMR 4198 to reload for my Remington 600 in .222 Remington with a Lee Loader and scoop. This was almost 30 years ago. 3/8" groups were the norm despite the poor powder scooping technique I had back then that produced about three quarters of a grain extreme spread among the charges. Like IMR 4064, IMR 4198 seems to be inherently insensitive to charge variation and with that comes a degree of temperature immunity of its own.

In QuickLOAD the two perform at very similar load levels, but the separate file for AR2207 doesn't quite agree with them. That's likely an illustration of lot variation, since a lot of QuickLOAD's powders have been single lots measured in a calorimetry lab. That is don owing to their manufacturers not having or not wanting to part with the information. So with the chemistry and process differences and the lot variation in mind, the loads should not be treated as interchangeable and you need to work them up separately.

BruceM · February 19, 2010, 08:18 PM

They are not the same powders. Load data for each is different.

Bruce

TXGunNut · February 28, 2010, 06:10 PM

In my vocation when someone says A is the same as B we suspect he doesn't know much about either. I know from experience that sometimes A is very similar to B but I don't assume anything. When I run out of a given powder I remember the advice given in every loading manual; reduce load and work up. Lots don't seem to vary much lately but some of my stuff is over 15 yrs old.
Just wish I knew which 4350 (if any) will work in my problem-child .30-06. Powder is pretty expensive and hard to find these days. They all have their fans.

Blue Grass · February 28, 2010, 08:19 PM

Follow the published load data for the powder you are using. Use IMR data for IMR powder,etc. Don't substitute.

**Unclenick** · March 1, 2010, 05:49 PM

TXGunNut,

In the case of H4198, you can download the MSDS from Hodgdon's site and it identifies it as AR 2207, and credits the Australian company as its source. I did a bunch of MSDS reading at one point and found the following powder identities. Any sharing the same line left to right are the same powder, thought Military and some OEM versions are bulk and not canister grade:

Code:

Hodgdon            |  Military  | Winchester            | Thales
                   |  & OEM     |                       | (ADI)
___________________|____________|_______________________|________
HP-38              | OBP231     | 231                   |
H110               |  WC296     | 296                   |
H414               |  WC760     | 760                   |
H380               |  WC852     |                       |
Lil' Gun           | OBP516     |                       |
Hybrid 100V        | SHP771     |                       |
HS-6               |  WC540     |                       |
H335               |  WC844     |                       |
BL-C(2)            |  WC846     |                       |
Titewad            | OBP132     |                       |
Tightgroup         | OBP242     |                       |
Longshot           | OBP473     |                       |
US869              |  WC869     |                       |
                   |  WAA90     |  WST                  |
                   | WXC170     |  WSF                  |
                   | OBP124     |  AALite (WFL)         |
                   | OBP465     |  Super-Handicap (WSH) |
                   |  WC760     |  760                  |
                   |  WC748     |  748                  |                 
                   | WMR780     |  Supreme 780          | 
                   | SMP224     |  AutoComp             |
Clays              |            |                       | AS30N
International Clays|            |                       | AS50N
Universal Clays    |            |                       | AS70N
H4227              |            |                       | AR2205
H4198              |            |                       | AR2207
Benchmark          |            |                       |  BM2
H322               |            |                       | AR2219
H4895              |            |                       | AR2206H
Varget             |            |                       | AR2208
H4350              |            |                       | AR2209
H4831              |            |                       | AR2213
H4831SC            |            |                       | AR2213SC
H1000              |            |                       | AR2217
Retumbo            |            |                       | AR2225
H50BMG             |            |                       | AR2218

SKULLANDCROSSBONES65 · March 2, 2010, 02:11 AM

G'day, Unclenick I have an update for your list. There is a thread with more details here.

ADI Technical Centre

ADI / Hodgdon Propellants

ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
AS30N.................Clays
Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
AS50N.................International
AP70N.................Universal
AR2205...............H4227
AR2207...............H4198
AR2219...............H322
BM2....................Benchmark
AR2206H.............H4895
AR2208...............Varget
AR2209...............H4350
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
AR2217...............H1000
AR2225...............Retumbo
AR2218...............H50BMG

Also, it looks like you may have a typo. I think it should be AP70N.

Quote:

Universal Clays | | | AS70N

Hope this helps you as much as your data will help me.

February 19, 2010, 03:54 PM	#1
rbf420 Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2009 Posts: 166	H4198 same as imr4198 just wondering if the manufactures makes a different if the numbers are the same EX: imr 4198 vs H-4198 thanks!

February 19, 2010, 04:16 PM	#2
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	They are not the same. There are several different powders that are SIMILAR, that use the same numbers with different prefixes because they are produced by different manufacturers. If you look at the loading data for, say the two 4198s or the three 4350s, you will see that the maximum charge weights typically differ by enough to matter. So, make sure that you have proper data for the powder you are actually using. SL1

February 19, 2010, 05:07 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	SL1 is correct. The processes are not the same. H4198 is actually repackaged AR2207, an ADI powder. ADI is part of the Thales Group in Australia. It employs their special deterrent system that is supposed to make the powder less sensitive to temperature variation. The IMR 4198 product is an older process and chemistry, but one that has proven to be remarkably effective. I shot more cloverleafs over a range of temperatures (probably about 50 degrees to 90 degrees) than I can shake a fist at using IMR 4198 to reload for my Remington 600 in .222 Remington with a Lee Loader and scoop. This was almost 30 years ago. 3/8" groups were the norm despite the poor powder scooping technique I had back then that produced about three quarters of a grain extreme spread among the charges. Like IMR 4064, IMR 4198 seems to be inherently insensitive to charge variation and with that comes a degree of temperature immunity of its own. In QuickLOAD the two perform at very similar load levels, but the separate file for AR2207 doesn't quite agree with them. That's likely an illustration of lot variation, since a lot of QuickLOAD's powders have been single lots measured in a calorimetry lab. That is don owing to their manufacturers not having or not wanting to part with the information. So with the chemistry and process differences and the lot variation in mind, the loads should not be treated as interchangeable and you need to work them up separately. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 28, 2010, 06:10 PM	#5
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	In my vocation when someone says A is the same as B we suspect he doesn't know much about either. I know from experience that sometimes A is very similar to B but I don't assume anything. When I run out of a given powder I remember the advice given in every loading manual; reduce load and work up. Lots don't seem to vary much lately but some of my stuff is over 15 yrs old. Just wish I knew which 4350 (if any) will work in my problem-child .30-06. Powder is pretty expensive and hard to find these days. They all have their fans. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

February 19, 2010, 08:18 PM	#4
BruceM Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2006 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 285	They are not the same powders. Load data for each is different. Bruce

February 28, 2010, 08:19 PM	#6
Blue Grass Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 398	Follow the published load data for the powder you are using. Use IMR data for IMR powder,etc. Don't substitute.