What's in a name?

[polska]

As the TV commercial ' Inquiring minds want to know'. Does anyone have any idea how powder companies come up with the names of powders? I'll use just imr, where do they come up with 4895 or 4064 or 4350? I had heard ( don't know if it's true) that 3031 was named after the British changed from cordite to grain powder. Thus 303 plus 1 or 3031.
Is there any rhyme or reason for the names.
I can understand names like blue dot or red dot to tag a name to the powder. More modern powders are names like Varget or AR Comp which makes sense. But what with those old crazy number names? There's got to be a reason.

[wachtelhund1]

I imagine its the same as prescription drugs. Ten or so people sit in a room and try to come up with the best name, then throw a bunch of letters at the name trying to spell it and there after try to pronounce it.

[polska]

There has to be some kind meaning to those numbers? Feet per second , burn rate, chemical formula something. Some body must know. I can't believe somebody just decided to call it 4350. Got to be a reason.

[44 AMP]

I had heard ( don't know if it's true) that 3031 was named after the British changed from cordite to grain powder. Thus 303 plus 1 or 3031.

Nice story, but I doubt its true as the British were still using Cordite in the .303 during WWII and 3031 had been around for some time then.

I'm sure the numbers mean something, but you'll have to ask DuPont (or whoever made the powder).

There is a story about one of the Hodgdon powders,no idea if its true, that H380 was so named because 38gr was Bruce's favorite load in the .22-250...

stories abound. Sometimes the names have a meaning, sometimes they're just names for inventory control or marketing purposes.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Sometimes the names have a meaning, sometimes they're just names for inventory control or marketing purposes.

Yep....and sometimes they're just marketing. Like Lil' Gun, Titegoup, Longshot, Bullseye, Unique, etc.

[Nick_C_S]

This is an Unclenick question if I ever heard one.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by polska

There has to be some kind meaning to those numbers?

Why?

[Mal H]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

... H380 was so named because 38gr was Bruce's favorite load in the .22-250...

That one is true. I heard it (that is, read it) from the man himself. As for the other numbered powders, I don't have a clue.

[cdoc42]

It has to be traceable to some manufacturer agreement otherwise there would be no similarity to the numbers as we know them.

[std7mag]

Define "simularity".

IMR 4350, H 4350 and Accurate 4350 all have different burn rates.

And why would IMR 4895 be a faster burn rate than IMR 4831? Or IMR 4155 for that matter?

I had heard & read about Bruce Hodgdon's naming of the H380 in the 22-250 also.

At least Alliant's Red, Green & Blue Dot makes sense.
They literally have the coresponding color in the powder.

[kilotanker22]

I have been curious as to the answer to this question as well, so I reached out to Hodgdon and asked. I asked them the reason for powders like H4350, H4831, etc., the reason they were so named. Hodgdon's response was "Hi Joshua, those two powders have no rhyme or reason for their names. They were simply inventory designations."

[polska]

Yeah, I don't buy that answer. It was probably answered by someone who was not even born when those powders came out.
Someone must know if they're not dead. The answer is out there, probably in the money pit on Oak Island.

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by polska

Yeah, I don't buy that answer. It was probably answered by someone who was not even born when those powders came out.
Someone must know if they're not dead. The answer is out there, probably in the money pit on Oak Island.

If we are being fair, then a majority of the human race was born after those two powders were first distributed by Hodgdon. After world war two, he originally sold the surplus powder 4350, but it was slower burning than 4350 so it was renamed 4831. You could use the following link to have. A nice read about Hodgdon and the relationship they have with ADI in Australia. Sadly it does not answer this question but I found it to be interesting. Originally found this link on one forum or another about this topic but I don't recall where.. http://https://revivaler.com/hodgdon...an-connection/

[cdoc42]

The same question can be applicable to cartridge designations. Why is a .270 Winchester not considered a 7mm cartridge? It is 0.277 inches which = 7.04mm while the widely recognized 7mm Remington Magnum is 0.284" = 7.21mm.

The new military interest is 6.8mm which has been called a .270, but 6.8mm =.268"

The 6.5mm Creedmoor is considered a .264" but the conversion is .257". The .264 diameter bullet for the 6.5mm Creedmoor is really 6.71mm. which is closer to the miitary designation of 6.8mm than the attribution it is a .270.

[kilotanker22]

I would say that in the case of 7mm bullets would be because of the bore diameter before cutting or displacing the rifling into the barrel. This could be represented by the distance between the peaks of the lands from opposing sides of the bore. For 7mm Remington Magnum I believe the land diameter is .277". When you consider that the bore diameter of the 270 Win is .270", you can begin to deduce a pattern.

[warnerwh]

I believe 2400 was named that because that was the velocity it could produce in the .22 Hornet.

[noelf2]

For IMR powders it's the initials of the inventors as numbers on a phone. Except for White Hots, because they are white and get really hot.

[cdoc42]

"I would say that in the case of 7mm bullets would be because of the bore diameter before cutting or displacing the rifling into the barrel. This could be represented by the distance between the peaks of the lands from opposing sides of the bore. For 7mm Remington Magnum I believe the land diameter is .277". When you consider that the bore diameter of the 270 Win is .270", you can begin to deduce a pattern."

That sounds reasonable. I would assume, then, in the 7mm example you gave, the distance between the grooves is .284 while that of the lands is .277 -?

[kilotanker22]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

"I would say that in the case of 7mm bullets would be because of the bore diameter before cutting or displacing the rifling into the barrel. This could be represented by the distance between the peaks of the lands from opposing sides of the bore. For 7mm Remington Magnum I believe the land diameter is .277". When you consider that the bore diameter of the 270 Win is .270", you can begin to deduce a pattern."

That sounds reasonable. I would assume, then, in the 7mm example you gave, the distance between the grooves is .284 while that of the lands is .277 -?

That is basically how I see it. Not all cartridges are that way, but in the case of the 6.5 bores, 270, 7mm, and .300 most seem to be that way. 300 win mag, 308, 30-06 all have a bore diameter of .300" nominally with a bullet diameter of .308".

Brux 7mm barrels have a bore diameter of .276", presumably to create a better deal on the bullets.

[Mike Irwin]

Some have opined that the Du Pont powder numbers were related to lab formulary or batching numbers.

I'm not so sure about that because Du Pont's early pistol powders generally had single digit numbers and their Military Rifle and Sporting Rifle powders had double digit numbers. Not sure what the differences were between the two -- but both used two digit numbers.

For example, SR 80 and MR 17...

In the 1930s Du Pont changed to IMR, Improved Military Rifle and around that time adopted the 4 digit numbering scheme for rifle powders... but I've seen cans labeled IMR 18, so the change apparently wasn't universal or immediate.

[44 AMP]

Regarding bore size, bullet diameter, and cartridge names, there is a relationship, but once you get past the first number, its entirely a matter of what the maker wants to call it.

English or metric system, rounding up or down, measuring bore (land) or groove diameter, or even a name based on the historical parentage of the round and not related to actual bullet diameter (after the first digit).
Also the cartridge name can even be a combination of these things, or just something chosen for its market appeal and different from other names.

And, straight math conversions (primarily metric to english) don't always work out "right" (to match bullet diameter to 3 decimal places) either.

5.56mm converts to .218"
7mm is .275"
7.62mm is .300"
etc.

Nation of origin and its manufacturer's customs also play a part in the cartridge name.

examples abound. 7x57mm, 7mm Mauser, and .275 Rigby are all the same round, depending if you are in Europe, the USA, or England.

9mm Luger is 9mm Parabellum (original maker's name) 9x19mm (standard metric designation) or 9mm Luger (US name).

8mm Mauser, 8x57mm are commonly used, but the German military designation is 7.92mm...

.22 Hornet, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .221 Fireball, .222Rem, .222 Rem Mag, .223 Rem/5.56x45mm, .224 Weatherby, .225 Winchester, and .22-250 all shoot the same .224" diameter bullets.

US .30 caliber rifles use .308 bullets, but Russian ".30s" 7.62mm usually use .311-.312" bullets, as does the .303 British, and the 7.7x58mm Arisaka rounds.

It gets even more "into the weeds" when you look at the names of pistol rounds vs. their bullet diameters, today.

Like why our ".38s" shoot .36 caliber bullets (.358") and why our ".44s" shoot ".43" (.429") slugs. The reason is due to the history of metallic cartridge and bullet development, AND, as always, marketing.

Regarding IMR powder number designations in their 4 digit series, I don't know the actual reason for each number, but I've always suspected it had something to do with each one's characteristics with each number of the code system meaning something specific to the maker.

Like the military ID systems. For example, the Army designator for a WWII "deuce and a half" truck was CCKW the letters being code for a 6 wheel drive truck. The amphibious version was the DUKW, becoming nicknamed the "duck" for obvious reasons (it swam).

When it comes to names for firearms related things, there are general conventions that are usually followed, but there are no hard and fast rules, not even SAAMI.

[HiBC]

There are a variety of schemes to name powders.

I could be wrong,but remember DuPont was making military powder,and Mr Hogdon was salvaging military rifle powder.

I suspect there is a "Data Sheet" of specs or requirements for those military powders. I'm not saying its the gospel fact...but picture if you will a military purchase order for " Smokless Rifle Powder Data # 4895 Four rail cars full"

And the data sheet would have a bunch of specs. Dupont gets the bid. They make and test the powder. Its certified good to spec #4895. Approved. Loaded into 30-06 rounds.

Later,that ammo is surplused and pulled down,or the war ended with rail cars of powder left over. Bruce Hogdon buys it . When he puts it in cans and sells it,what does he call it? Data 4895. Maybe DuPont made commercial IMR 4895. Hogdon salvaged H-4895. Acurate powder may have said "Me,too!! and cooked up Accurate 4895 All the same military spec,but different loading data due to variation.

Thats my guess.

I think that H-380 designation came out of some groups fired that measured O.380 in at 100 yds.

I believe some shotgun/pistol powders used colored granules to help with powder ID. Like "Red Dot,Blue Dot"

[Paul B.]

"Later,that ammo is surplused and pulled down,or the war ended with rail cars of powder left over. Bruce Hogdon buys it . When he puts it in cans and sells it,what does he call it? Data 4895. Maybe DuPont made commercial IMR 4895. Hogdon salvaged H-4895. Acurate powder may have said "Me,too!! and cooked up Accurate 4895 All the same military spec, but different loading data due to variation."

A lot of truth there, especially when it came to #4895. Each box car was technically a different lot and had to be tested. When Hodgden got it at first it was sold from barrels into a paper bag. You either got a slip or the seller wrote on the bag, "USE 3031 DATA' or USE 4064 DATA") I've seen both and some that you use data for 4320. That powder was all over the place. Finally Hodgden just took it all and blended it into one homogenous powder we know as H4895.

One the difference between H4831 and IMR 4831, what I heard was this. DuPont made IMR 4831 for use in loading 20MM cannon shells during WW2. They never released it in cannister form for handloaders. After the war, Hodgden bout up what as left that had been in storage for some time. During that time it had deteriorated to some degree and was now slower burning than the original Dupont powder. When H4831 became so popular, Dupont started making it for the handloading trade to the original formula which meant it was faster burning than Hodgden's powder. Finally the Hodgden version became too far gone and had to be destroyed.

One powder that Hodgden brought out didn't last very long. That was H205. That was one I really liked in the 30-06. Too bad as the choice of number designation caused some confusion with Norma's N205 which was a lot slower burning. I've always believed that was the reason H205 was discontinued so quickly. Guess I'll never no for sure as Hodgden ain't telling.
Paul B.

[Mike Irwin]

Here's a good page I just found that discusses the origins of many of the IMR powders...

https://military-history.fandom.com/...e#IMR_.23_4895

The term Improved Military Rifle was adopted when Du Pont began using dinitrotoluene as a deterrent coating to moderate burning rates and graphite as a means of controlling static electricity and to provide some lubrication for the loading process.