Lead vs jacketed??

Casey · November 29, 2000, 10:31 AM

Hello all.

I have been loading my .45 rounds Rainier 200 gr. SWC, but recently the local shop where I buy them had a price bump. The price of loading my .45's jumped to a point where I am unhappy, as I usually shoot 400-500 a week.

The local shop owner suggested that I try some lead SWC. What he uses himself and sells are D&J branded. I loaded some up, and other than the smoke from the lubrication (which I assume is harmless??), saw no difference in performance. The cost is almost 1/2 of the Rainiers.

I shoot a Kimber in .45, a Baer in .40, and a Colt in 9X23 (as soon as I get it back from Mr. Burns, which appears to be soon!!). As I shoot the target loads at lower speeds (4.1 to 4.5 gr Hodgdon Clays with 200gr SWC in .45, for instance) I don't think there is any danger of leading up a barrel.

I haven't cleaned it from the first round of shooting lead yet. I sometimes go 400-500 without cleaning with the jacketed rounds (I know some of the anti 1911 folks, or even the anti Kimber folks won't believe that!!); is that a problem with lead?

Anyone got any comments? Was I foolish to shoot the jacketed for so long?

Thanks.

Casey

DaMan · November 29, 2000, 11:01 AM

Casey, the D&J bullets are excellent lead bullets. Their Henley and Gibbs #68 style 200 gr. SWC will work well in your Kimber and most any other .45 ACP pistol.

My favorite load with the above bullet is 5.5 - 5.8gr. of Win231.

Regards! DaMan

JHill · November 29, 2000, 01:12 PM

Casey, check out my response @ 1911forum.

Hal · November 30, 2000, 07:28 AM

Foolish? Hardly. 25 years of handloading myself and reading about other's has taught me that most of it is trial and error when it comes to working up a greatload for a particular gun as opposed to a good load for overall use. I admit, I got just plain bald face lucky with my first attempt at a good .45acp load. I use 4.7gr of Unique under a 230 gr cast lead rn. In my Colt Commander, it works fine and gives me a decent sized group about the same as any ball ammo. In my Kimber, the load shoots a one hole "group" about 3/4 of an inch across, or better on a good day, at 7 yards.

Contrast this to a 9mm, which I also am trying to work up a load for. 5 gr of Unique, under a 125 gr lead RN, is just dismal. 12 inch "groups" at 25 yards are the norm in both my CZ75B, and both of my Hi Powers. The same loading of Unique, under a 124gr FMJ is pretty decent. Now, since I bought 500 of the lead 124 gr slugs, I guess I could say I wasted my time/money on them, except for the trail and error part. I've heard that 231 and Bullesye both give decent results with a lead bullet, so I don't see it as foolish at all. I mean, who knows? This could have been just the perfect combo for MY CZ75B or one of the Hi Powers. I still want to try the load in my Son's Firestar, so it isn't quite a dead issue yet.

DaMan · November 30, 2000, 12:12 PM

RAE, I've never had very good luck with the 125 gr. LRN bullets in the 9mm Para. I've had EXCELLENT results with the D&J 147gr. LSWC sized to .356". These should work well in your CZ, Hi-Power, and your son's Firestar. I've used these in several different pistols, S&W, Ruger, H&K, SIG, a Firestar and a Glock (although it's not recommended to shoot lead bullets through the Glock polygonal bbl.).

Since you are using Unique, this is the load I'd recommend:

3.4 - 3.7 gr. of Unique w/WSP loaded to 1.122" OAL

I put a VERY SLIGHT taper crimp on these.

The best results are achieved at right around 850 fps.

There are also other bullet companies that have the 147gr. LSWC. Any bullet that uses SAECO 929 145gr. SWCBB lubed and sized to .356" should give you similar results.

Regards DaMan

Art Eatman · November 30, 2000, 12:59 PM

Casey, in my IPSC daze, some 20 years back, I was shooting about the same amount as you. Sometimes more. I used DaMan's load, 5.8 grains of 231 behind some sort of 200-grain SWC. Brand? Whatever was cheapest. Soft? Hard? Yeah, probably. I'd had a Lewis Lead Remover for years, and the Lord sure inspired Mr. Lewis when he dreamed it up.

I figure jacketed stuff for social work; SWCs for everything else...

, Art

JoeHatley · November 30, 2000, 03:43 PM

Casey,

I shoot the plated Rainier 200 grain SWC also, but try to keep my shooting costs down by using lead bullets from a commercial caster about 2/3 the time.

A bunch of local shooters have started combining our orders for Rainier bullets and sending in one order direct to the factory. You'd be suprised how quickly you can fill the 35K minimum bullet order with just a few IPSC/IDPA shooters. Heck, I don't shoot either and I still go through 13K+ per year by myself. Factory direct prices are almost identical to what most commercial casters charge for lead.

BTW: Midway has D&J bullets on special in December.

Good Luck...

Joe

Turk · November 30, 2000, 05:41 PM

Casey,

Cast bullets will save you money and are very accurate. I don't think you have to really worry about leading with the calibers you are shooting if you stay with a hard cast bullet.

Try this company it's in Eastlake, Ohio

http://www.nationalbullet.com/

I used to cast all of my own bullets for 38/357,9mm,41,44 mag., 45ACP & 45 Colt took too much of my time. I've purchased NBC bullets for years (been reloading over 31 years) and never had a problem with them.

Turk

RiverRider · November 30, 2000, 07:36 PM

I've cast and used thousands of Lyman's #452460 200-grain SWC in numerous 1911 pistols, and have gotten very good results...with the exception of a Norinco 1911 Compact I had for a brief time---it did not like ANYTHING I fed it.

I tried numerous powders with this bullet, and have found W231 to be a very good choice.

Hal · December 1, 2000, 08:06 AM

DaMan,
Thanks for the info on the heavier slugs for the 9mm. I'll pick some up next show or maybe take a drive up to National Bullet (Thanks Turk) since they are about 45 min from me. Have you tried a copper wash or copper plated 9mm in 125 gr,or am I going to have the same results as a plain lead?

DaMan · December 1, 2000, 04:42 PM

I have reloaded many 125gr. plated and fired many thousands of commercial reloads that used used these. They have generally provided better accuracy than my 125gr. LRN reloads.

My 147gr. reloads give better accuracy than any jacketed bullet I have been able to find. I also shoot a lot of reactive (steel) targets which require the use of lead bullets.

In addition to the Unique powder load I mentioned, there are also good loads for this bullet using W231, HP38, Tite Group and Universal (among others).

I never used copper washed bullets, so I can't comment on them.

Regards! DaMan

November 29, 2000, 10:31 AM	#1
Casey Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: Delaware, OH, USA Posts: 279	Hello all. I have been loading my .45 rounds Rainier 200 gr. SWC, but recently the local shop where I buy them had a price bump. The price of loading my .45's jumped to a point where I am unhappy, as I usually shoot 400-500 a week. The local shop owner suggested that I try some lead SWC. What he uses himself and sells are D&J branded. I loaded some up, and other than the smoke from the lubrication (which I assume is harmless??), saw no difference in performance. The cost is almost 1/2 of the Rainiers. I shoot a Kimber in .45, a Baer in .40, and a Colt in 9X23 (as soon as I get it back from Mr. Burns, which appears to be soon!!). As I shoot the target loads at lower speeds (4.1 to 4.5 gr Hodgdon Clays with 200gr SWC in .45, for instance) I don't think there is any danger of leading up a barrel. I haven't cleaned it from the first round of shooting lead yet. I sometimes go 400-500 without cleaning with the jacketed rounds (I know some of the anti 1911 folks, or even the anti Kimber folks won't believe that!!); is that a problem with lead? Anyone got any comments? Was I foolish to shoot the jacketed for so long? Thanks. Casey __________________ "Our job is to give people not what they want, but what we decide they ought to have." Richard Salant, former President of CBS News "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln

November 30, 2000, 03:43 PM	#7
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	Casey, I shoot the plated Rainier 200 grain SWC also, but try to keep my shooting costs down by using lead bullets from a commercial caster about 2/3 the time. A bunch of local shooters have started combining our orders for Rainier bullets and sending in one order direct to the factory. You'd be suprised how quickly you can fill the 35K minimum bullet order with just a few IPSC/IDPA shooters. Heck, I don't shoot either and I still go through 13K+ per year by myself. Factory direct prices are almost identical to what most commercial casters charge for lead. BTW: Midway has D&J bullets on special in December. Good Luck... Joe __________________ Go NRA

November 29, 2000, 11:01 AM	#2
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	Casey, the D&J bullets are excellent lead bullets. Their Henley and Gibbs #68 style 200 gr. SWC will work well in your Kimber and most any other .45 ACP pistol. My favorite load with the above bullet is 5.5 - 5.8gr. of Win231. Regards! DaMan

November 29, 2000, 01:12 PM	#3
JHill Member Join Date: May 23, 2000 Location: TN Posts: 53	Casey, check out my response @ 1911forum.

November 30, 2000, 07:28 AM	#4
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	Foolish? Hardly. 25 years of handloading myself and reading about other's has taught me that most of it is trial and error when it comes to working up a greatload for a particular gun as opposed to a good load for overall use. I admit, I got just plain bald face lucky with my first attempt at a good .45acp load. I use 4.7gr of Unique under a 230 gr cast lead rn. In my Colt Commander, it works fine and gives me a decent sized group about the same as any ball ammo. In my Kimber, the load shoots a one hole "group" about 3/4 of an inch across, or better on a good day, at 7 yards. Contrast this to a 9mm, which I also am trying to work up a load for. 5 gr of Unique, under a 125 gr lead RN, is just dismal. 12 inch "groups" at 25 yards are the norm in both my CZ75B, and both of my Hi Powers. The same loading of Unique, under a 124gr FMJ is pretty decent. Now, since I bought 500 of the lead 124 gr slugs, I guess I could say I wasted my time/money on them, except for the trail and error part. I've heard that 231 and Bullesye both give decent results with a lead bullet, so I don't see it as foolish at all. I mean, who knows? This could have been just the perfect combo for MY CZ75B or one of the Hi Powers. I still want to try the load in my Son's Firestar, so it isn't quite a dead issue yet.

November 30, 2000, 12:12 PM	#5
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	RAE, I've never had very good luck with the 125 gr. LRN bullets in the 9mm Para. I've had EXCELLENT results with the D&J 147gr. LSWC sized to .356". These should work well in your CZ, Hi-Power, and your son's Firestar. I've used these in several different pistols, S&W, Ruger, H&K, SIG, a Firestar and a Glock (although it's not recommended to shoot lead bullets through the Glock polygonal bbl.). Since you are using Unique, this is the load I'd recommend: 3.4 - 3.7 gr. of Unique w/WSP loaded to 1.122" OAL I put a VERY SLIGHT taper crimp on these. The best results are achieved at right around 850 fps. There are also other bullet companies that have the 147gr. LSWC. Any bullet that uses SAECO 929 145gr. SWCBB lubed and sized to .356" should give you similar results. Regards DaMan

November 30, 2000, 12:59 PM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Casey, in my IPSC daze, some 20 years back, I was shooting about the same amount as you. Sometimes more. I used DaMan's load, 5.8 grains of 231 behind some sort of 200-grain SWC. Brand? Whatever was cheapest. Soft? Hard? Yeah, probably. I'd had a Lewis Lead Remover for years, and the Lord sure inspired Mr. Lewis when he dreamed it up. I figure jacketed stuff for social work; SWCs for everything else... , Art

November 30, 2000, 05:41 PM	#8
Turk Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2000 Location: USA Posts: 517	Casey, Cast bullets will save you money and are very accurate. I don't think you have to really worry about leading with the calibers you are shooting if you stay with a hard cast bullet. Try this company it's in Eastlake, Ohio http://www.nationalbullet.com/ I used to cast all of my own bullets for 38/357,9mm,41,44 mag., 45ACP & 45 Colt took too much of my time. I've purchased NBC bullets for years (been reloading over 31 years) and never had a problem with them. Turk

November 30, 2000, 07:36 PM	#9
RiverRider Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2000 Posts: 341	I've cast and used thousands of Lyman's #452460 200-grain SWC in numerous 1911 pistols, and have gotten very good results...with the exception of a Norinco 1911 Compact I had for a brief time---it did not like ANYTHING I fed it. I tried numerous powders with this bullet, and have found W231 to be a very good choice.

December 1, 2000, 08:06 AM	#10
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	DaMan, Thanks for the info on the heavier slugs for the 9mm. I'll pick some up next show or maybe take a drive up to National Bullet (Thanks Turk) since they are about 45 min from me. Have you tried a copper wash or copper plated 9mm in 125 gr,or am I going to have the same results as a plain lead?

December 1, 2000, 04:42 PM	#11
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	I have reloaded many 125gr. plated and fired many thousands of commercial reloads that used used these. They have generally provided better accuracy than my 125gr. LRN reloads. My 147gr. reloads give better accuracy than any jacketed bullet I have been able to find. I also shoot a lot of reactive (steel) targets which require the use of lead bullets. In addition to the Unique powder load I mentioned, there are also good loads for this bullet using W231, HP38, Tite Group and Universal (among others). I never used copper washed bullets, so I can't comment on them. Regards! DaMan