Question about annealed brass - Page 4

mehavey · December 30, 2016, 06:39 PM

Quote:

RULES & FACTORS...

(Please)

Reloadron · December 30, 2016, 06:49 PM

JeepHammer, it would be sweet if everything you post were in a single thread. You had some really good material in the thread where you started on induction heating and now this thread. Where I see a problem is a wealth of good stuff and your research will end up all over hell's half acre.

Ron

JeepHammer · December 30, 2016, 06:58 PM

Rule 1. Get above 650*, closer to 730*F.
Rule 2. DO NOT go much above 750*F.
Rule 3. If you reach 800* the 'Brass' is pretty much scrap.
Rule 4. If it shoots good & reloads well, you are doing it correctly for your application.
Rule 5. If it doesn't reload well or is inaccurate, you did it wrong.

This endith the 'Rules'...

Metal god · December 30, 2016, 07:16 PM

I can't believe this thread is still going on . If you all haven't , please do your self a favor and put him on your ignore list . Trust me your reloading life will be better for it .

Bytesniffer · December 30, 2016, 07:37 PM

With all the advice I got annealing
Down.
I can anneal the military
Brass down to 1.623
Without making the brass
To hot. Switched back to
Propane.

JeepHammer · December 30, 2016, 09:47 PM

(Head Scratching...)
"Anneal 'Down' to 1.623"

Now I'm lost entirely....

Metal god · December 30, 2016, 10:17 PM

LMAO

That's what I meant by my last post haha . This thread has went on so long arguing/debating about nothing . The guys posting the most don't even remember what the OP was trying to do . This thread was answered two pages ago lol . Guffey can do that to a thread .

mehavey · December 30, 2016, 11:29 PM

I'm sensing ESL here....

Marco Califo · December 31, 2016, 01:00 AM

OK, I am holding my brass into the hot air of this thread.

I was going to hold on until it got too hot to hold,

but, I just got tired of everyone saying: Your doing it wrong! Your doing it Wrong!

I just got bored, and annoyed, and found something more interesting,
Like watching grass grow in winter.

Reloadron · December 31, 2016, 08:35 AM

Bytesniffer:

Quote:

With all the advice I got annealing
Down.
I can anneal the military
Brass down to 1.623
Without making the brass
To hot. Switched back to
Propane.

You do not anneal down or up. You just anneal which is a softening process. You do know that a 1.626" case head to shoulder datum is 0.006" below SAAMI Minimum for a .308 Winchester case or 7.76 X 54 NATO. It sounds like you are not correctly using the Hornady L-N-L Headspace Gauge Set. This was mentioned earlier. I suggest you read the directions for the gauge and understand its proper use and that it only serves as a comparator. When measuring a fresh fired case all you get is a reference number, that is all. You get a reference number then start resizing and compare the resize number to the initial reference number. This tells you how much you are pushing the case down. Read the instructions.

Ron

F. Guffey · December 31, 2016, 09:29 AM

I do not like being involved in threads that get locked but I suggested members of this forum should consider the possibility they are being had.

Back to annealing with a candle: If you do not have anything constructive just say "I got nothing". Apply rules and factors to annealing with a candle. And then there is that part about holding the case in the hand and try to remembers the rules about annealing brass and remember at best the 30/06 cases is shorter than 2.50", that does not leave much room on the case for the fingers, forget shorter cases.

I am going to assume after you fellow members took a run at the list of factors and rules; "You got nothing". But to carry on a coherent conversation when annealing with a candle, I believe you should at least try.

F. Guffey

mehavey · December 31, 2016, 11:00 AM

Quote:

list of factors and rules...

Guffey, can you point us to those?

firewrench044 · January 1, 2017, 12:13 AM

What Bytesniffer is saying is that he has learned the magic
art of annealing and is able to size his brass now

You all wandered so far off topic with all your BS
that you only confused every body

He achieved what he was trying to do
So we are done here

JeepHammer · January 1, 2017, 02:17 PM

I'm still confused...

Guffey keeps saying 'RULES & FACTORS' like that's the last word...
With no hint of what 'His' RULES & FACTORS might be.

Most of us keep saying that it depends on HOW you are reaching the SCIENTIFIC OBJECTIVE of annealing the brass alloy.

Since several methods have been mentioned, the factors to acheave the OBJECTIVE change with each method...

It's not a question *IF* you can anneal brass to some degree,
It's a question *IF YOU CAN DO IT BETTER, CONSISTANTLY*...

RC20 · January 1, 2017, 04:08 PM

Quote:

JeepHammer, it would be sweet if everything you post were in a single thread. You had some really good material in the thread where you started on induction heating and now this thread. Where I see a problem is a wealth of good stuff and your research will end up all over hell's half acre.

Ron

Cut and Paste is your friend (though I still struggle with the paste part, back in kindergarten.....)

So, open up Word or your preferred Word Processor and cut and past it all into that. Save it often!

Then go through and edit out the stuff, clean up, put in spaces as needed and you have the

JeepHammer Book on Annealing!

I too have thought about asking Mr. G what he meant, but as I was confused already I thought I might be tempted to finish myself off beating my head bloody against the wall of comprehension and thought, dont' ask.

Reloadron · January 1, 2017, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Cut and Paste is your friend (though I still struggle with the paste part, back in kindergarten.....)

So, open up Word or your preferred Word Processor and cut and past it all into that. Save it often!

Then go through and edit out the stuff, clean up, put in spaces as needed and you have the

JeepHammer Book on Annealing!

I too have thought about asking Mr. G what he meant, but as I was confused already I thought I might be tempted to finish myself off beating my head bloody against the wall of comprehension and thought, dont' ask.

The paste tasted good. Yeah, I should be saving all this stuff.

While I am new to this forum I am not new to the post of Mr. Guffy. Different forum but same stuff. I no longer ask.

Ron

Bytesniffer · January 1, 2017, 08:09 PM

I apologize for not being clear
When asking questions.

I have developed a feel for
Heating the brass up
Concentrating on the shoulder
With the propane flame, not the
Neck etc heating up just hot
Enough.
Then size the brass.
The factory 7.62 ammo
Reads 1.618/20
I have no problem sizing the
Brass I annealed to 1.623/25
Which chambers fine in my
Rifle. 1.625 can feel a little
Tight but I don't believe is
A big problem.
I am going to get some tempilaq
700 to be more precise with
Temp.
I am absolutely certain I am
Not overheating the brass.
I developed a very good feel
For this. It cost me many
Cases that where probably
OK but I trashed them anyway.

The case before I heat it
Reads 1.35 approx
After , heating and sizing
It reads approx 1.623/25
And chambers. Good
Not sure why these readings
Are confusing
Please explain.

JeepHammer · January 1, 2017, 10:02 PM

Not to put too fine a point on things,
You are using a gauge adapter that's not an ABSLOUTE,
More for compairing.

You have it figured out, you know what reading (absloute or not) that fits well in your rifle, so you are already ahead of 99.9% of 'Reloaders'.
Most don't own a case Go/NoGo gauge, not to mention you have the caliper adapter to accurately track any changes!

As you push case walls back in where they belong, the case gets longer.
As you push the shoulder back down where it belongs, the brass that stretched as the case bloated has no where to go but 'UP'.

This is why cases sometimes need trimmed...
The case bloats when fired, making the walls thinner,
When you push the walls in and the neck back down, with thinner walls the brass has to go somewhere...

Sometimes cases actually get shorter when fired (bloat) and you DO NOT get the length back when you resize.
This is usually because the very base of the case bloats where common resizing dies can't reach it.

This is when start rolling cases between two steel dies that CAN push the bottom bloat back in (and clean up/restore the extraction groove/rim).
Case rollers are NOT cheap, so most people use 'Small Base' dies instead of case rollers, but the small base dies have issues of their own.

Does any of this make sense?

I've also found when you properly heat far down the case sides or overheat the cases sometimes get longer with nothing but annealing.
It's a head scratcher, but not to confuse the thread further, I won't go there.

Bytesniffer · January 2, 2017, 07:57 AM

It absolutely makes sense.
I bought a small base die
Before I practiced annealing
Enough times to get a good
Feel for it, thinking I would
Need it. The rcbs full length
Die once I conditioned
The brass works well.
I was thinking , some didn't
Like my readings, maybe
My caliper is off by a few
Thousandths ?
Now, I'll have to get another
One to check this one !

Reloadron · January 2, 2017, 08:41 AM

I doubt it is your caliper. Note what JeepHammer mentions. The gauge you are using does not give you an absolute reading, it is used for reference or comparison. The Hornady L-N-L Headspace Gauge was never designed to give an absolute number, it is designed as a comparator type method of measurement. The instruction manual as to how to use the gauge covers that.

Quote:

The gauge measures variations in your brass before and after firing and resizing. It allows comparison between fire formed brass and your resized brass.

That is all it does. The numbers you are getting are not true actual dimensions, they are merely reference numbers. Heck, I placed a true standard 1.630" headspace gauge in my Hornady and you saw the numbers it gave me. Mine read -0.006" below actual. That is normal.

A better gauge if you want an absolute reading would be the RCBS Precision Mic type gauges. I have tested those against standard headspace gauges and they are typically +/- 0.001".

Ron

JeepHammer · January 2, 2017, 12:09 PM

An ABSLOUTE adapter has a square edge so you can 'Zero' the caliper on the same surface that contacts the Datum Line on the case.
Sharp edges and brass don't often get along, so an ABSLOUTE adapter is a little hard to use, it likes to hang up on the brass.

The comparator gauge has a radius in the mouth, giving you a reading that is a little 'Off' from absloute, but it's MUCH easier to use.
When you are just trying to make brass that fits YOUR rifle, it's not an issue.
If you were trying to resize to exactly SAAMI specification, or 'Factory' specification, it would be an issue.

YOUR readings won't match SAAMI specifications, even if you hit SAAMI because of the radius on the adapter mouth.
Like we have pretty much all said, doesn't matter since you are making brass for YOUR rifle.
You know where to bump that shoulder back to for YOUR rifle with YOUR measuring equipment, so you are WAY ahead of the game!

If *YOU* are happy with your annealing process, then you are set!

Reloading is like playing a guitar,
Anyone can pick up three chords and do it badly,
Only a few will put the time & effort into learning the science,-- chemistry, physics and practices that make 'Better' rounds, and the equipment/practices that allow you to consistantly make that 'Better' round.

Honestly, 'Shooting' can be done with a fixture.
Human 'Shooter' not required, and a fixture that takes the human element out of the equation is the 'acid test' or 'proofing' for ammo...

Reloading is a hobby/dicipline unto itself.
'Shooters' can buy ammo when the OBJECTIVE is to put 'Lead' through a firearm...
Reloaders can't buy a completed round, by definition, the OBJECTIVE is to make the round, and to make it as accurate & CONSISTANT as possible.

You have to be equal parts OCD & curious to take this up to its extremes,
(And a touch 'Crazy' doesn't hurt either!)

JeepHammer · January 2, 2017, 12:19 PM

Here is one that will certainly start a crap fight...

Just changing lube will give you different sized brass...
The viscosity of the lube, how easily it 'squeezes' out from between brass & die will change how the brass sizes.
Thicker lubes will stay in place and make smaller brass, all else being equal.

A very common example of this is case dents on the shoulder,
The lube stays put and deforms the brass instead of thinner lubes migrating to other parts of the die (like out the vent hole) and not making dents.
This is an extreme example, but makes the point.

mehavey · January 2, 2017, 01:20 PM

Any lube that changes -- pro or con -- the forced required in sizing
will change press spring (and hence change final size dimensions)

F. Guffey · January 2, 2017, 01:20 PM

For you members that drink: Stop! For the members that do not drink, do not start because

I believe you guys are silly enough sober.

Quote:

(Head Scratching...)
"Anneal 'Down' to 1.623"

Now I'm lost entirely....

You can not blame me for that, I am not the fan of starting new reloaders into a dead run without basic understanding of reloading. My opinion this is a clear case of the need for a new member starting slower. I would suggest this one start with new ammo and on rare occasions someone should determine how much remedial help this new reloader/member requires.

F. Guffey

Marco Califo · January 2, 2017, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Just changing lube will give you different sized brass...

I believe this is true, but have not tried to measure it.

I think this (below) is why White Lithium grease works so well. A very thin application, residue from a paper towel, with no gobs or white streaks, just a dull film is all it takes.

"Grease made with lithium soap ("lithium grease") adheres particularly well to metal, is non-corrosive, may be used under heavy loads, and exhibits good temperature tolerance. It has a drip temperature of 190 to 220 °C (370 to 430 °F) and resists moisture, so it is commonly used as lubricant in household products, such as electric garage doors, as well as in automotive applications, such as CV joints. Lithium-containing greases first appeared during World War II and were perhaps the first large-scale commercial application of lithium compounds."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap

December 30, 2016, 07:16 PM	#79
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I can't believe this thread is still going on . If you all haven't , please do your self a favor and put him on your ignore list . Trust me your reloading life will be better for it . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

December 30, 2016, 10:17 PM	#82
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	LMAO That's what I meant by my last post haha . This thread has went on so long arguing/debating about nothing . The guys posting the most don't even remember what the OP was trying to do . This thread was answered two pages ago lol . Guffey can do that to a thread . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again . Last edited by Metal god; December 30, 2016 at 11:49 PM.

December 31, 2016, 01:00 AM	#84
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,600	OK, I am holding my brass into the hot air of this thread. I was going to hold on until it got too hot to hold, but, I just got tired of everyone saying: Your doing it wrong! Your doing it Wrong! I just got bored, and annoyed, and found something more interesting, Like watching grass grow in winter. __________________ ............

December 30, 2016, 06:49 PM	#77
Reloadron Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2016 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs Posts: 1,750	JeepHammer, it would be sweet if everything you post were in a single thread. You had some really good material in the thread where you started on induction heating and now this thread. Where I see a problem is a wealth of good stuff and your research will end up all over hell's half acre. Ron

December 30, 2016, 06:58 PM	#78
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Rule 1. Get above 650, closer to 730F. Rule 2. DO NOT go much above 750F. Rule 3. If you reach 800 the 'Brass' is pretty much scrap. Rule 4. If it shoots good & reloads well, you are doing it correctly for your application. Rule 5. If it doesn't reload well or is inaccurate, you did it wrong. This endith the 'Rules'...

December 30, 2016, 07:37 PM	#80
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	With all the advice I got annealing Down. I can anneal the military Brass down to 1.623 Without making the brass To hot. Switched back to Propane.

December 30, 2016, 09:47 PM	#81
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	(Head Scratching...) "Anneal 'Down' to 1.623" Now I'm lost entirely....

December 30, 2016, 11:29 PM	#83
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,898	I'm sensing ESL here....

December 31, 2016, 09:29 AM	#86
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I do not like being involved in threads that get locked but I suggested members of this forum should consider the possibility they are being had. Back to annealing with a candle: If you do not have anything constructive just say "I got nothing". Apply rules and factors to annealing with a candle. And then there is that part about holding the case in the hand and try to remembers the rules about annealing brass and remember at best the 30/06 cases is shorter than 2.50", that does not leave much room on the case for the fingers, forget shorter cases. I am going to assume after you fellow members took a run at the list of factors and rules; "You got nothing". But to carry on a coherent conversation when annealing with a candle, I believe you should at least try. F. Guffey

January 1, 2017, 12:13 AM	#88
firewrench044 Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Location: Fort Pierce, Florida Posts: 381	What Bytesniffer is saying is that he has learned the magic art of annealing and is able to size his brass now You all wandered so far off topic with all your BS that you only confused every body He achieved what he was trying to do So we are done here

January 1, 2017, 02:17 PM	#89
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	I'm still confused... Guffey keeps saying 'RULES & FACTORS' like that's the last word... With no hint of what 'His' RULES & FACTORS might be. Most of us keep saying that it depends on HOW you are reaching the SCIENTIFIC OBJECTIVE of annealing the brass alloy. Since several methods have been mentioned, the factors to acheave the OBJECTIVE change with each method... It's not a question IF you can anneal brass to some degree, It's a question IF YOU CAN DO IT BETTER, CONSISTANTLY...

January 1, 2017, 10:02 PM	#93
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Not to put too fine a point on things, You are using a gauge adapter that's not an ABSLOUTE, More for compairing. You have it figured out, you know what reading (absloute or not) that fits well in your rifle, so you are already ahead of 99.9% of 'Reloaders'. Most don't own a case Go/NoGo gauge, not to mention you have the caliper adapter to accurately track any changes! As you push case walls back in where they belong, the case gets longer. As you push the shoulder back down where it belongs, the brass that stretched as the case bloated has no where to go but 'UP'. This is why cases sometimes need trimmed... The case bloats when fired, making the walls thinner, When you push the walls in and the neck back down, with thinner walls the brass has to go somewhere... Sometimes cases actually get shorter when fired (bloat) and you DO NOT get the length back when you resize. This is usually because the very base of the case bloats where common resizing dies can't reach it. This is when start rolling cases between two steel dies that CAN push the bottom bloat back in (and clean up/restore the extraction groove/rim). Case rollers are NOT cheap, so most people use 'Small Base' dies instead of case rollers, but the small base dies have issues of their own. Does any of this make sense? I've also found when you properly heat far down the case sides or overheat the cases sometimes get longer with nothing but annealing. It's a head scratcher, but not to confuse the thread further, I won't go there.

January 2, 2017, 07:57 AM	#94
Bytesniffer Member Join Date: November 29, 2016 Location: Long island ny Posts: 67	It absolutely makes sense. I bought a small base die Before I practiced annealing Enough times to get a good Feel for it, thinking I would Need it. The rcbs full length Die once I conditioned The brass works well. I was thinking , some didn't Like my readings, maybe My caliper is off by a few Thousandths ? Now, I'll have to get another One to check this one !

January 2, 2017, 12:09 PM	#96
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	An ABSLOUTE adapter has a square edge so you can 'Zero' the caliper on the same surface that contacts the Datum Line on the case. Sharp edges and brass don't often get along, so an ABSLOUTE adapter is a little hard to use, it likes to hang up on the brass. The comparator gauge has a radius in the mouth, giving you a reading that is a little 'Off' from absloute, but it's MUCH easier to use. When you are just trying to make brass that fits YOUR rifle, it's not an issue. If you were trying to resize to exactly SAAMI specification, or 'Factory' specification, it would be an issue. YOUR readings won't match SAAMI specifications, even if you hit SAAMI because of the radius on the adapter mouth. Like we have pretty much all said, doesn't matter since you are making brass for YOUR rifle. You know where to bump that shoulder back to for YOUR rifle with YOUR measuring equipment, so you are WAY ahead of the game! If YOU are happy with your annealing process, then you are set! Reloading is like playing a guitar, Anyone can pick up three chords and do it badly, Only a few will put the time & effort into learning the science,-- chemistry, physics and practices that make 'Better' rounds, and the equipment/practices that allow you to consistantly make that 'Better' round. Honestly, 'Shooting' can be done with a fixture. Human 'Shooter' not required, and a fixture that takes the human element out of the equation is the 'acid test' or 'proofing' for ammo... Reloading is a hobby/dicipline unto itself. 'Shooters' can buy ammo when the OBJECTIVE is to put 'Lead' through a firearm... Reloaders can't buy a completed round, by definition, the OBJECTIVE is to make the round, and to make it as accurate & CONSISTANT as possible. You have to be equal parts OCD & curious to take this up to its extremes, (And a touch 'Crazy' doesn't hurt either!)

January 2, 2017, 12:19 PM	#97
JeepHammer Junior member Join Date: February 27, 2015 Posts: 1,768	Here is one that will certainly start a crap fight... Just changing lube will give you different sized brass... The viscosity of the lube, how easily it 'squeezes' out from between brass & die will change how the brass sizes. Thicker lubes will stay in place and make smaller brass, all else being equal. A very common example of this is case dents on the shoulder, The lube stays put and deforms the brass instead of thinner lubes migrating to other parts of the die (like out the vent hole) and not making dents. This is an extreme example, but makes the point.

January 2, 2017, 01:20 PM	#98
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,898	Any lube that changes -- pro or con -- the forced required in sizing will change press spring (and hence change final size dimensions)