Surplus M4s?

dahermit · August 18, 2021, 05:58 PM

One can only speculate if the fall of the Afghan Army will enable American made surplus M4s to hit the market. I can see the advertisement now: "For sale Afghan Army M4s... never been fired, only dropped once."

Mainah · August 18, 2021, 06:19 PM

I've seen plenty of pictures of Taliban fighters carrying them.

**Aguila Blanca** · August 18, 2021, 07:11 PM

How ironic that declared terrorists are given select-fire American-made combat weapons, but patriotic American citizens can't be trusted with the same firearms.

jonnyc · August 18, 2021, 07:47 PM

"One can only speculate if the fall of the Afghan Army will enable American made surplus M4s to hit the market."
You can speculate 'til the cows come home, but those can not/will not ever hit the US commercial market...they are select-fire. They may hit some underground international gun-smuggling market, but good luck with that.

dahermit · August 18, 2021, 10:05 PM

"...never been fired, only dropped once." Come on guys... humor! HUMOR!!

**44 AMP** · August 18, 2021, 11:13 PM

Quote:

"One can only speculate if the fall of the Afghan Army will enable American made surplus M4s to hit the market."

Yes they will be, if not already are on the market in KABUL.

you won't see them on the legal US market, EVER.

Unless we repeal the Hughes Amendment, or the entire NFA 34.

The "never been fired, only dropped once" joke has been applied to a lot of WWII French and Italian rifles.

I'm pretty sure the Afghan army fired their M4s..at least in training..with ammo our tax dollars paid for...

STORM2 · August 19, 2021, 01:02 AM

I suspect there will be fewer Uncle Sam dollars for US small arms manufacturers for the immediate future. That should leave some manufacturer’s needing income.

Mainah · August 19, 2021, 07:47 AM

It's my understanding that we have a digital record of the serial numbers. So in theory we could trace guns that get resold in other parts of the world and used in acts of terrorism. Not that I imagine we will.

Quote:

I suspect there will be fewer Uncle Sam dollars for US small arms manufacturers for the immediate future. That should leave some manufacturer’s needing income.

I think that could go either way, especially given the cluster in Afghanistan now.

**44 AMP** · August 19, 2021, 03:06 PM

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much (and what) US OWNED material was left behind. US made material, sold or given to the Afghan govt is no longer our responsibility, its theirs, which is a different matter than US owned material being left for the Taliban to take.

This may seem like a minor point, but its not. The press is already beating their drum over how the US pullout "armed" the Taliban with modern equipment, completely ignoring the failure of those people the US trusted to do what we expected them to do.

Unlike WWII but like Vietnam, when we left Afghanistan we left an armed, organized "enemy" force in the field to fight the govt we left behind us. Not even remotely like what happened in Germany and Japan in 1945.

popular history today teaches that after we left (actually as we were leaving) the govt of South Vietnam fell, "because it was corrupt" completely ignoring the fact of half a dozen or so NVA divisions (including a couple armored divisions) invading the country, in addition to the Viet Cong already there.

What will "popular" history say about Afghanistan in a few years, I wonder...

jonnyc · August 19, 2021, 08:20 PM

"popular history today teaches that after we left (actually as we were leaving) the govt of South Vietnam fell"

Well...technically we "left" in 1973 and the Saigon regime fell in 1975. In Afghanistan I think the regime left before we did!

Mainah · August 20, 2021, 10:33 AM

Quote:

This may seem like a minor point, but its not. The press is already beating their drum over how the US pullout "armed" the Taliban with modern equipment, completely ignoring the failure of those people the US trusted to do what we expected them to do.

I can't figure out the logic behind the way we left Bagram. Sure seems like a mistake now.

Quote:

Well...technically we "left" in 1973 and the Saigon regime fell in 1975. In Afghanistan I think the regime left before we did!

Yup, and the communists that the Soviets left in power held on in Afghanistan for several years. Our guy lasted two days.

But it appears that the Chinese will be facing a mix of M4s and AKs in the not too distant future.

gbclarkson · August 20, 2021, 06:48 PM

Quote:

How ironic that declared terrorists are given select-fire American-made combat weapons, but patriotic American citizens can't be trusted with the same firearms.

Really? Show of hands - Who here thinks that the Taliban will use their newly acquire firearms responsibly?

reynolds357 · August 20, 2021, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much (and what) US OWNED material was left behind. US made material, sold or given to the Afghan govt is no longer our responsibility, its theirs, which is a different matter than US owned material being left for the Taliban to take.

This may seem like a minor point, but its not. The press is already beating their drum over how the US pullout "armed" the Taliban with modern equipment, completely ignoring the failure of those people the US trusted to do what we expected them to do.

Unlike WWII but like Vietnam, when we left Afghanistan we left an armed, organized "enemy" force in the field to fight the govt we left behind us. Not even remotely like what happened in Germany and Japan in 1945.

popular history today teaches that after we left (actually as we were leaving) the govt of South Vietnam fell, "because it was corrupt" completely ignoring the fact of half a dozen or so NVA divisions (including a couple armored divisions) invading the country, in addition to the Viet Cong already there.

What will "popular" history say about Afghanistan in a few years, I wonder...

According to what Trump said last night, the U S. Still owned multiple Blackhawks, tanks, and Bradley's that were left there. Hardware was on loan to Afghan Army.

reynolds357 · August 20, 2021, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gbclarkson

Really? Show of hands - Who here thinks that the Taliban will use their newly acquire firearms responsibly?

They will sell more than they will use.

Wag · August 22, 2021, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reynolds357

They will sell more than they will use.

This.

--Wag--

DaleA · August 22, 2021, 12:50 PM

Apparently there's some Afgahn pilots fleeing the country with their aircraft. Wonder what the market is for a (slightly) used war plane or helicopter?

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...m-the-taliban/

(I suspect that right now, supply and demand being what it is, the market is somewhat depressed.)

**44 AMP** · August 22, 2021, 03:38 PM

If a pilot from another country lands in yours and you take that aircraft away from him, if you sell it what ever you get for it is 100% profit.

No matter if the market is up or down...

Dfariswheel · August 22, 2021, 04:48 PM

A major reason South Vietnam fell is because the Dimocrat congress in the USA cut off all ammo supplies and stopped all air cover.
This in spite of "solemn promises" to provide both made during the Peace Accords that got us out.

With no ammo and no air cover, they were over run by tanks.
Not that the SV military was much of a real fighting force other then a few units.
They, like the Afghan army were not much interested in actual combat.

I would expect some M16 rifles to be sold internationally by the Taliban for needed money, but as long as the ammo holds out I suspect they'll use them as a better upgrade to the AK's that are starting to wear badly from use and neglect.
A lot of US M16 rifles left in Vietnam still turn up in Africa and Asia.

Strange.
Biden wants to ban all "assault weapons of war" from American citizens, but allows real weapons of war to fall into the hands of a group of 12th Century religious fanatic mountain bandits.
Operation Fast and Furious by Obama-Biden looks like a piker operation by comparison.

veprdude · August 22, 2021, 06:21 PM

They could always be brought in as parts kits without the receiver and barrel.

dahermit · August 22, 2021, 08:04 PM

I intended the original post to be humorous and not taken seriously. The line, " ...never been fired and only dropped once.", came from a movie about Vietnam.

Seeing that it has inspired questionable political rhetoric, I request the the mods take it down.

TXAZ · August 22, 2021, 11:15 PM

No worries, I’d love to have one before the M4 and a lot of other mil materials become Chinese property.
Hint: Watch China start moving millions of Chinese nationals into Afghanistan (like they are doing in Tibet) to take our guns.

reddog81 · August 23, 2021, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mainah

It's my understanding that we have a digital record of the serial numbers. So in theory we could trace guns that get resold in other parts of the world and used in acts of terrorism.

That and $1.50 will get you a coffee at McDonalds...

I'm not sure what good "tracing" a firearm does other than you can then go back to the seller and try to punish them.

August 18, 2021, 05:58 PM	#1
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	Surplus M4s? One can only speculate if the fall of the Afghan Army will enable American made surplus M4s to hit the market. I can see the advertisement now: "For sale Afghan Army M4s... never been fired, only dropped once."

August 18, 2021, 07:11 PM	#3
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,473	How ironic that declared terrorists are given select-fire American-made combat weapons, but patriotic American citizens can't be trusted with the same firearms. __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

August 18, 2021, 07:47 PM	#4
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	"One can only speculate if the fall of the Afghan Army will enable American made surplus M4s to hit the market." You can speculate 'til the cows come home, but those can not/will not ever hit the US commercial market...they are select-fire. They may hit some underground international gun-smuggling market, but good luck with that. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

August 19, 2021, 03:06 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,850	Just out of curiosity, I wonder how much (and what) US OWNED material was left behind. US made material, sold or given to the Afghan govt is no longer our responsibility, its theirs, which is a different matter than US owned material being left for the Taliban to take. This may seem like a minor point, but its not. The press is already beating their drum over how the US pullout "armed" the Taliban with modern equipment, completely ignoring the failure of those people the US trusted to do what we expected them to do. Unlike WWII but like Vietnam, when we left Afghanistan we left an armed, organized "enemy" force in the field to fight the govt we left behind us. Not even remotely like what happened in Germany and Japan in 1945. popular history today teaches that after we left (actually as we were leaving) the govt of South Vietnam fell, "because it was corrupt" completely ignoring the fact of half a dozen or so NVA divisions (including a couple armored divisions) invading the country, in addition to the Viet Cong already there. What will "popular" history say about Afghanistan in a few years, I wonder... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 19, 2021, 08:20 PM	#10
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	"popular history today teaches that after we left (actually as we were leaving) the govt of South Vietnam fell" Well...technically we "left" in 1973 and the Saigon regime fell in 1975. In Afghanistan I think the regime left before we did! __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

August 18, 2021, 06:19 PM	#2
Mainah Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2007 Posts: 1,119	I've seen plenty of pictures of Taliban fighters carrying them.

August 18, 2021, 10:05 PM	#5
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	"...never been fired, only dropped once." Come on guys... humor! HUMOR!!

August 19, 2021, 01:02 AM	#7
STORM2 Member Join Date: January 23, 2021 Location: Texas Posts: 75	I suspect there will be fewer Uncle Sam dollars for US small arms manufacturers for the immediate future. That should leave some manufacturer’s needing income.

August 22, 2021, 12:50 PM	#16
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Apparently there's some Afgahn pilots fleeing the country with their aircraft. Wonder what the market is for a (slightly) used war plane or helicopter? https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...m-the-taliban/ (I suspect that right now, supply and demand being what it is, the market is somewhat depressed.)

August 22, 2021, 03:38 PM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,850	If a pilot from another country lands in yours and you take that aircraft away from him, if you sell it what ever you get for it is 100% profit. No matter if the market is up or down... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

August 22, 2021, 04:48 PM	#18
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	A major reason South Vietnam fell is because the Dimocrat congress in the USA cut off all ammo supplies and stopped all air cover. This in spite of "solemn promises" to provide both made during the Peace Accords that got us out. With no ammo and no air cover, they were over run by tanks. Not that the SV military was much of a real fighting force other then a few units. They, like the Afghan army were not much interested in actual combat. I would expect some M16 rifles to be sold internationally by the Taliban for needed money, but as long as the ammo holds out I suspect they'll use them as a better upgrade to the AK's that are starting to wear badly from use and neglect. A lot of US M16 rifles left in Vietnam still turn up in Africa and Asia. Strange. Biden wants to ban all "assault weapons of war" from American citizens, but allows real weapons of war to fall into the hands of a group of 12th Century religious fanatic mountain bandits. Operation Fast and Furious by Obama-Biden looks like a piker operation by comparison.

August 22, 2021, 06:21 PM	#19
veprdude Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2019 Location: Texas Posts: 432	They could always be brought in as parts kits without the receiver and barrel.

August 22, 2021, 08:04 PM	#20
dahermit Senior Member Join Date: October 28, 2006 Location: South Central Michigan...near Posts: 6,501	I intended the original post to be humorous and not taken seriously. The line, " ...never been fired and only dropped once.", came from a movie about Vietnam. Seeing that it has inspired questionable political rhetoric, I request the the mods take it down.

August 22, 2021, 11:15 PM	#21
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	No worries, I’d love to have one before the M4 and a lot of other mil materials become Chinese property. Hint: Watch China start moving millions of Chinese nationals into Afghanistan (like they are doing in Tibet) to take our guns. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes