FTF, FTE "T" head-stamp 556 reloads

Astocks2622 · February 24, 2017, 08:32 PM

I started building up loads for my AR, and some of the brass I had is 5.56 with a "T" head-stamp. I went to the range to chrono & group them, but had trouble only with this specific brass with FTF's and difficult extraction after the FTF. It wouldn't always chamber fully, but would usually, either from initial charging or in the middle of a mag.
If I didn't notice and pulled the trigger, nothing would happen, and then they were extremely difficult to extract. Like bang on the charging handle with a piece of wood, difficult.
These were all FL sized, then trimmed, and primed, CCI 400. These cases definitely have deeper primer pockets, so not sure if the FTF was always because of being slightly out of battery, or from light strikes.
Either way, I had no trouble with the factory ammo I brought, or any of the other reloads I was testing.
Ideas?

Here is a pic of the head-stamp.

I don't see any major scratches or signs that the car was too long, pinching the neck on the lands. Don't know why they'd be Abby different than the other brass I processed exactly the same way...

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243winxb · February 24, 2017, 08:47 PM

To much crimp can bulge the shoulder. Keeps round from fully chambering. Unfired has hard extraction problems.

But if all are trimmed to the same length, then maybe something else ??

Snyper · February 24, 2017, 09:01 PM

It was probably once fired in a machine gun with an over sized chamber and isn't being resized fully.

Astocks2622 · February 24, 2017, 10:10 PM

Well, either could be what's going on. I set my calipers .002 under the listed max case length, and trim anything that doesn't fit. I do use a Lee fcd, so I might have over crimped.
I don't see anything indicating the case walls are oversized, or anything like a ring where the sizer die stopped. But it is all the same brass causing issues, so maybe it's once fired military. Any idea who makes this specific brass.

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243winxb · February 24, 2017, 10:37 PM

Tula Arsenal, Tula Russia??

http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/h...adstampcodes#T

Metal god · February 25, 2017, 02:49 AM

Hold on , give me a second to catch my breath . Had to run to the other side of the house to view the whole photo

.

I've never seen that head stamp , crimp or primer . All kinds of reasons to have issues though .

Nosler guy · February 25, 2017, 04:19 AM

I've had the exact issues issues in the past. Some cases are softer than others and will bulge at the shoulder junction when you come down too hard on the crimp as mentioned above. Best fix is not to crimp at all.

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Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 07:37 AM

I don't crimp my other rifle loads, but I thought it would be a good idea with the semi autos

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Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 07:39 AM

So as these cartridges salvageable if I resize then again, or are they toast?

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Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metal god

Hold on , give me a second to catch my breath . Had to run to the other side of the house to view the whole photo

.

I've never seen that head stamp , crimp or primer . All kinds of reasons to have issues though .

Well the primer is a CCI 400, and the primer pocket had been chamfered. What your actually looking at is one of my reloads that stuck...

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wwmkwood · February 25, 2017, 10:03 AM

The crimp from the Lee factory crimp die would not affect the shoulder. I think the issue is the Lee sizing die is not a small base die. I have seen the same in two ARs I load for and have gone to a small base die. Chances are the cases were shot out of a rifle with a slightly large chamber and you are now sticking closer to the bolt face. Mark a case with a sharpie and try to chamber it again.

Don P · February 25, 2017, 10:30 AM

Astocks2622, please learn how to resize/downsize your photos

Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 11:20 AM

OK, I Sharpied one of the problem rounds, and the only obvious interference is up on the shoulder, not towards the case head. How sure are we that the FCD can't slightly bulge the shoulder? It has to be pushing down some, even though it's mostly squeezing with the collet system, right?

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Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 11:25 AM

Well, I pulled one of the bullets or of a problem round, and I am definitely coming too much, like an obvious indentation in the projectile of .0015-.002". So that's something to address, obviously.
However, I resized the case after pulling the bullet, and then tried to chamber just the case. Same problem, but not quite as tight. Clear marks in the marker on the shoulder, and a slight ring near the case head. So maybe the chambering issue is an oversized case near the head?

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Metal god · February 25, 2017, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Well the primer is a CCI 400, and the primer pocket had been chamfered. What your actually looking at is one of my reloads that stuck...

Oh yes , now I see what I'm looking at . That chamfer looked like a whole other step in the primer pocket and the primer looked seated really deep but now that I know what I'm looking at it looks fine haha Thanks

Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 11:50 AM

OK, the chambering issues are definitely NOT from the crimp. Just tried some of the problem brass that I had sized and primed, but not loaded yet. Every one stuck when I tried to extract. Guess I need a small base die.

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Snyper · February 25, 2017, 06:42 PM

Quote:

so maybe it's once fired military

The crimp around the primers indicate it's military brass.

If your bullets don't have a crimping groove, stop crimping them at all.
It's really not necessary.

I wouldn't try small base dies just yet.

I'd just stop using all the mixed junk brass and buy some decent brass to begin with and then I think you will see all your problems disappear.

Dufus · February 25, 2017, 07:22 PM

This link says the brass is of Tula Russia manufacturer.

http://www.igman.com/ammunition/codes/T/T-Russia.html

It could also be Empresa Nacional Santa Barbara de Industrias Militares, SA Toledo, Spain.

Or Munitionsfabrik Thun, Thun, Switzerland.

Don't hold me to it as I have been wrong before.

Astocks2622 · February 25, 2017, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snyper

The crimp around the primers indicate it's military brass.

If your bullets don't have a crimping groove, stop crimping them at all.
It's really not necessary.

I wouldn't try small base dies just yet.

I'd just stop using all the mixed junk brass and buy some decent brass to begin with and then I think you will see all your problems disappear.

I did separate out the brass by head-stamp for the load development, loading each ladder with the same brass. I'll be using the Federal and LC brass for my accuracy loads, but it would be nice to use the 500 or so of these Tula or whatever for plinking loads or lost brass matches. If I can get them to function fine by purchasing a $25 die, it seems worth it.

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Metal god · February 25, 2017, 09:04 PM

I see two options really . First I agree it's likely you need a SB die for those . You can get the SB die or just set those aside for now with a note in the bag or box stating they need a SB die and once you get one you can bring those into the rotation .

I load for two 5.56 chambers and two 223 Wylde chambers and have not needed a SB die ( thank god ) They do have there place though . I just started needing one in 308 . Not due to my tight chambers but because this specific lot of brass was so stretched out my standard die would not size them down enough . I'm assuming they had just enough spring back to chamber tight when sized with my Redding FL bushing die . I'm wondering now that I've sized them down enough . Maybe they will not need the SB die next time .

wwmkwood · February 26, 2017, 10:31 AM

Another trick I use for cases that have been expanded near the base is a 380 bulge buster die. Use case lube.

Astocks2622 · February 28, 2017, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwmkwood

Another trick I use for cases that have been expanded near the base is a 380 bulge buster die. Use case lube.

Hmm, well, I just tried that, and a few of the problem brass now will chamber and extract properly, but most still won't. Is it possible my Lee 223 dies at seeing the shoulder back enough? They're adjusted for the press to slightly cam-over after the fire touches the shell holder.

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Metal god · February 28, 2017, 11:29 AM

Yes but not likely with true cam over . "True" can over means the die and shell holder continue to make contact through out the cam over .

Here are two pictures show what I think would be reasonable to say the press and very light cam over when "NO" case was in the die .Note there is no space/gap between the die and shell holder

This is the same die adjustment but when sizing a case . Note there is now a space/gap between the die and shell holder .

This is do to press deflection where you get stretch and or flex in the press or ram linkage . Note the more work hardened or resistant to sizing the case is the more deflection you may have . Other factors like type of lube and caliber/size of case factor in as well .

So if the die and shell holder are making continuous contact throughout the cam over . The case "should" be sized from head to datum enough .

Astocks2622 · February 28, 2017, 01:00 PM

I'll have to check, but I don't think any gap opens up while actually sizing brass. I generally set the dies
Sizing die up so I can just feel resistance in the press handle at the end of the stroke.
I'll take a look tonight.

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ronl · March 1, 2017, 08:35 PM

I have many .223 semi-auto rifles and have no problems at all with the standard dies. I would go out and get a case length gauge and set the dies to minimum on the gauge. I don't have a problem with it as long as I set the dies up properly for the semi rifles. Now I forgot that when reloading for my .308 CMMG Mk3 .308, and loaded about 400rds that wouldn't chamber. They were too long. I resized the loaded ammo with a shoulder bump die and this time I remembered to use a case length gauge to set the die. It worked out just fine.

February 24, 2017, 08:32 PM	#1
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	FTF, FTE "T" head-stamp 556 reloads I started building up loads for my AR, and some of the brass I had is 5.56 with a "T" head-stamp. I went to the range to chrono & group them, but had trouble only with this specific brass with FTF's and difficult extraction after the FTF. It wouldn't always chamber fully, but would usually, either from initial charging or in the middle of a mag. If I didn't notice and pulled the trigger, nothing would happen, and then they were extremely difficult to extract. Like bang on the charging handle with a piece of wood, difficult. These were all FL sized, then trimmed, and primed, CCI 400. These cases definitely have deeper primer pockets, so not sure if the FTF was always because of being slightly out of battery, or from light strikes. Either way, I had no trouble with the factory ammo I brought, or any of the other reloads I was testing. Ideas? Here is a pic of the head-stamp. I don't see any major scratches or signs that the car was too long, pinching the neck on the lands. Don't know why they'd be Abby different than the other brass I processed exactly the same way... Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 24, 2017, 09:01 PM	#3
Snyper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2013 Location: Eastern NC Posts: 3,047	It was probably once fired in a machine gun with an over sized chamber and isn't being resized fully. __________________ One shot, one kill

February 25, 2017, 02:49 AM	#6
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Hold on , give me a second to catch my breath . Had to run to the other side of the house to view the whole photo . I've never seen that head stamp , crimp or primer . All kinds of reasons to have issues though . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

February 25, 2017, 10:30 AM	#12
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Astocks2622, please learn how to resize/downsize your photos __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

February 25, 2017, 07:22 PM	#18
Dufus Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2014 Posts: 1,965	This link says the brass is of Tula Russia manufacturer. http://www.igman.com/ammunition/codes/T/T-Russia.html It could also be Empresa Nacional Santa Barbara de Industrias Militares, SA Toledo, Spain. Or Munitionsfabrik Thun, Thun, Switzerland. Don't hold me to it as I have been wrong before. Last edited by Dufus; February 25, 2017 at 07:32 PM.

February 24, 2017, 08:47 PM	#2
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	To much crimp can bulge the shoulder. Keeps round from fully chambering. Unfired has hard extraction problems. But if all are trimmed to the same length, then maybe something else ??

February 24, 2017, 10:10 PM	#4
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	Well, either could be what's going on. I set my calipers .002 under the listed max case length, and trim anything that doesn't fit. I do use a Lee fcd, so I might have over crimped. I don't see anything indicating the case walls are oversized, or anything like a ring where the sizer die stopped. But it is all the same brass causing issues, so maybe it's once fired military. Any idea who makes this specific brass. Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 24, 2017, 10:37 PM	#5
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	Tula Arsenal, Tula Russia?? http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/h...adstampcodes#T

February 25, 2017, 04:19 AM	#7
Nosler guy Member Join Date: June 6, 2015 Location: Oregon Posts: 82	I've had the exact issues issues in the past. Some cases are softer than others and will bulge at the shoulder junction when you come down too hard on the crimp as mentioned above. Best fix is not to crimp at all. Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 07:37 AM	#8
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	I don't crimp my other rifle loads, but I thought it would be a good idea with the semi autos Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 07:39 AM	#9
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	So as these cartridges salvageable if I resize then again, or are they toast? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 10:03 AM	#11
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	The crimp from the Lee factory crimp die would not affect the shoulder. I think the issue is the Lee sizing die is not a small base die. I have seen the same in two ARs I load for and have gone to a small base die. Chances are the cases were shot out of a rifle with a slightly large chamber and you are now sticking closer to the bolt face. Mark a case with a sharpie and try to chamber it again.

February 25, 2017, 11:20 AM	#13
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	OK, I Sharpied one of the problem rounds, and the only obvious interference is up on the shoulder, not towards the case head. How sure are we that the FCD can't slightly bulge the shoulder? It has to be pushing down some, even though it's mostly squeezing with the collet system, right? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 11:25 AM	#14
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	Well, I pulled one of the bullets or of a problem round, and I am definitely coming too much, like an obvious indentation in the projectile of .0015-.002". So that's something to address, obviously. However, I resized the case after pulling the bullet, and then tried to chamber just the case. Same problem, but not quite as tight. Clear marks in the marker on the shoulder, and a slight ring near the case head. So maybe the chambering issue is an oversized case near the head? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 11:50 AM	#16
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	OK, the chambering issues are definitely NOT from the crimp. Just tried some of the problem brass that I had sized and primed, but not loaded yet. Every one stuck when I tried to extract. Guess I need a small base die. Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

February 25, 2017, 09:04 PM	#20
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	I see two options really . First I agree it's likely you need a SB die for those . You can get the SB die or just set those aside for now with a note in the bag or box stating they need a SB die and once you get one you can bring those into the rotation . I load for two 5.56 chambers and two 223 Wylde chambers and have not needed a SB die ( thank god ) They do have there place though . I just started needing one in 308 . Not due to my tight chambers but because this specific lot of brass was so stretched out my standard die would not size them down enough . I'm assuming they had just enough spring back to chamber tight when sized with my Redding FL bushing die . I'm wondering now that I've sized them down enough . Maybe they will not need the SB die next time . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

February 26, 2017, 10:31 AM	#21
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	Another trick I use for cases that have been expanded near the base is a 380 bulge buster die. Use case lube.

February 28, 2017, 11:29 AM	#23
Metal god Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2012 Location: San Diego CA Posts: 6,876	Yes but not likely with true cam over . "True" can over means the die and shell holder continue to make contact through out the cam over . Here are two pictures show what I think would be reasonable to say the press and very light cam over when "NO" case was in the die .Note there is no space/gap between the die and shell holder This is the same die adjustment but when sizing a case . Note there is now a space/gap between the die and shell holder . This is do to press deflection where you get stretch and or flex in the press or ram linkage . Note the more work hardened or resistant to sizing the case is the more deflection you may have . Other factors like type of lube and caliber/size of case factor in as well . So if the die and shell holder are making continuous contact throughout the cam over . The case "should" be sized from head to datum enough . __________________ If Jesus had a gun , he'd probably still be alive ! I almost always write my posts regardless of content in a jovial manor and intent . If that's not how you took it , please try again .

February 28, 2017, 01:00 PM	#24
Astocks2622 Member Join Date: February 1, 2014 Posts: 97	I'll have to check, but I don't think any gap opens up while actually sizing brass. I generally set the dies Sizing die up so I can just feel resistance in the press handle at the end of the stroke. I'll take a look tonight. Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

March 1, 2017, 08:35 PM	#25
ronl Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Posts: 1,100	I have many .223 semi-auto rifles and have no problems at all with the standard dies. I would go out and get a case length gauge and set the dies to minimum on the gauge. I don't have a problem with it as long as I set the dies up properly for the semi rifles. Now I forgot that when reloading for my .308 CMMG Mk3 .308, and loaded about 400rds that wouldn't chamber. They were too long. I resized the loaded ammo with a shoulder bump die and this time I remembered to use a case length gauge to set the die. It worked out just fine.