Winchester 1886

[michaeld1004]

I recently received a Winchester 1886 from my grandfather. All he remembered about it is he received it from a relative in the 1940's. He has never used it and it has been hanging on the wall in his basement ever since.

It appears to be a 26" octagon barrel with a full length mag tube. There is a decent amount of surface rust, but I beleive the caliber is 32-56 WCF (maybe 38-56?). It looks like the serial # is 25144. The action functions well.

I think I would like to have it cleaned up and maybe fire it a few times. Is this a bad idea?

Any info about this rifle would be appreciated.

Thank You.

-Mike

[Jim Watson]

Winchester 1886 SN 25144 was made in 1888.
Caliber is likely .38-56, there were no .32 caliber '86s.

I would study up on gentle cleaning methods and get the active rust off without grinding it down to bare metal. Leave it with a clean but dull gray-brown apearance. No sandpaper, no Naval Jelly. An authentic restoration would be extremely expensive and a hardware store reblue would be an insult to a period rifle.

These rifles are rather complicated mechanically but instructions can be had. I'd find them, take it apart and clean and lube the internals. Clean the barrel thoroughly before shooting. Ammunition is available from Buffalo Arms, along with components if you handload.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4662.htm

No doubt somebody will come along and post a recommendation to take it to a gunsmith. This is fine if you can find one who knows old Winchesters or even old guns in general. There are a lot who don't. Beware of recommendations for a nice shiny hot tank reblue, for example.

[michaeld1004]

If this is a 38-56 (forgive my lack of knowledge) that means the bullet diameter is approximately .38", right? If I measure the inside diameter of the barrel, I get .429. And a .40 cal bullet (bullet only, not full cartridge, for my Glock) slides right through with room to spare.

What might this mean?

Thanks!

-Mike D.

[Hafoc]

Here's a quote from a John Taffin article. It is
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...46/ai_64259209

"The Model of 1886 was manufactured for nearly 50 years from 1886 to 1935, and was considered the rifleman's rifle in the 1880s and 1890s. This great levergun chambered nine black powder cartridges. In addition to the .45-90, original chamberings were in .45-70 and .40-82. The Model 1886 could also be found chambered in the big fifties, .50-100 and .50-110, as well as .40-70, .40-60, .38-70 and .38-56. Its last chambering before its demise in 1935 was the smokeless .33 Winchester."

So it was made in .38-56 as well as other, larger calibers.

Now, Winchester and most manufacturers back then could be pretty sloppy about their caliber designations. However, when I found some reloading information about the .38-40 at http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...91&MW=&PM=&PT=
it looks like the .38-56 used about a .376 bullet. .40 S&W uses a .400. There is no way that a .40 bullet is going to go down a .376 or less bore without any resistance.

Something is fishy here. Is it possible your rifle had its barrel rebored? If so, you might have to take a chamber casting, which I don't know how to do, to figure out what cartridge fits.

As it happens, .429 is the common bore diameter for so-called .44 caliber revolver cartridges such as .44 Russian and the .44 Special and .44 Magnum that are stretched versions of the Russian. NOT, be it noted, the .44/40, which is actually .418 or so! I wonder what .44 caliber cartridge someone might have been tempted to rechamber in an 1886, back in 1920 or so?

[Jim Watson]

If a .400" bullet goes through, it is not a .38-56 which modern books list at .376" but Winchester mostly made at .379" or thereabouts.

I know of no nominal .44 caliber that an '86 was made for or could be readily converted to. There were some .40s in the series but would not measure as large as .429"; next larger were .45s.

This is getting strange.
Please advise of all markings, pictures would help.

[michaeld1004]

Okay, here are a few quick pics. As far as markings, It is stamped with:

Top right, behind hammer:

- MODEL 1886 -

Bottom right, behind trigger:

Pat Oct 14, 1884
Jan 20 1885

25144 or 25744, most likely 25144

On the barrel:

Manufactures By The
Winchester Repeating Arms Co. New Haven, Conn. U.S.A.

The caliber is real hard to make out. It doesn't make sense, but it looks moset like 32-56 W.C.F. The W.C.F. is clear, and the -56 is somewhat clear.

I'm confident that my grandfather never had it rebored. He never even fired it.

I am trying to find a good gunsmith in the Los Angeles area to clean it up. Definately NOT a re-blue or anything drastic. At that point maybe he can slug the barrel or something. Or maybe get enough rust off to read the caliber. Or see if he can tell if it was re-bored.

Thanks!

-Mike D.

[Hafoc]

.38-56 makes perfect sense for this model, but if you're dropping .40 bullets through the bore, it ain't a .376 (or .379, thanks, Jim Watson).

I've gone through my reloading manuals and haven't come up with anything in .430 bore that makes any sense at all. The only cartridge listed there that would make sense in this action is the .444 Marlin-- introduced in 1964!

Of course that doesn't signify, since the .38-56 isn't in the manuals either. In any case, I'd really like to know what nominal .44 this could possibly be. Please keep us posted.

[Jim Watson]

Pictures are of a complete, original, rather neglected 1886 Winchester. Except that somebody whittled on the comb of the stock, Winchester did not make them that shape.

I am at a total loss on the caliber and do not know a L.A. gunsmith to refer you to.

[arcticap]

michaeld1004, I don't think that I would take that rifle to a gunsmith right away. At least not until I tried to track down a historical gun expert or a Winchester gun expert first. Gunsmiths are not necessarily the most knowledgable experts when it comes to the value of firearms and how to best protect your "historical investment" regarding this firearm.
My state has a gun collector's guild (association) of antique gun dealers and specialists in various gun specialties that I would be trusting to ask opinions from and be more confident that no harm would be done to the gun in any way shape or form that would dimish the gun's value along the way. These types of collectors and dealers are "usually" of high moral fiber and don't try to intentionally [or unintentionally] steer a person the wrong way since they have a lot of experience in the field and a reputation to protect.
I can't determine whether or not California has such a gun collector's association, but I did find an " Arms Collector's Committee":

For details regarding the California Rifle and Pistol Association ARMS COLLECTORS COMMITTEE, please contact:. Committee Chair Martin J. Miller Jr. ...
http://www.crpa.org/showpages.asp?pid=1037

Sometimes talking to someone on the phone can result in a personal referral to a trustworthy expert in your area who can further refer you to the "expert and trustworthy gunsmith" that you want.
People don't usually rise to positions of trust without being trustworthy, and if someone can't help you with a referral they will usually tell you.
I'd be concerned about going to the wrong gunsmith, you could end up regretting the decision especially if he diminishes the value of your gun. Don't rush into anything too quickly, at least not until you explore all your referral options first.

There's also this NRA affiliated association: http://www.winchestercollector.org/index.shtml

They have a contact form to fill out to request information, and may even be able to refer you to a Winchester collector in your area.

The NRA state collector's association listing for CA didn't seem like it would be too helpful, but you never really know who you might find to receive a decent referral.
A firearms appraiser also might know the right gunsmith to see in your area, or talk to or visit an elite gunshop.
Maybe the location of one of these CA clubs is close enough to you to receive helpful advice if you make a phone inquiry to the right person:

http://www.nrafoundation.org/about/corporate/clubs.asp

The more people you talk to the better the chances that you won't go to the wrong gunsmith, protect yourself and your rifle.

[fal308]

Another option would be to contact the Cody Museum and they will look through their records (they have the old Winchester records). For $55 they will send you a factory letter on your firearm. http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/records.cfm

[michaeld1004]

I checked with Cody and it was definately a 38-56. I just returned from the gunsmith and he says it was bored out. It is now a smooth bore, maybe for a .410 shotgun shell. In any case, he said it is pretty much shot, it's a wall-hanger.

-Mike D.

[Jim Watson]

Auggh!
What a horror story. There are a lot of nice British rifles ruined by reaming them out to .410 smoothbores because their government did not trust their subjects with real guns. Had not heard of it in America, certainly not that far back.

From the pictures, I would say it is not "pretty much shot" but it might be beyond
THAT gunsmith's capability. In any case, return to a sound shootable condition with a new or relined barrel (.45-70 would be a smart choice, a lot easier to get shooting than .38-56) would be quite expensive. A full restoration would be tremendously expensive.

[Steve499]

I recently had a muzzle loading rifle barrel re-lined. It cost me around $300.00 total for the liner and the labor. If I owned that Winchester, I'd be seeing my gunsmith again!

Steve

[Jim Watson]

A britchloader would cost more 'cause it has to be chambered and headspaced, but you are right, I would be hot on the trail of a reline or rebore. Like I said, .45-70 would be a lot less trouble to get shooting. .38-56 is a special order or handloading proposition.

One of the gunzines this month has a column on relining by John King, who is one of the best known BPCR gunsmiths in the business. Worth the price of the rag just to see what is involved.

[Hafoc]

Hrmm... but if .45/70 is a .454 bore, and the barrel is .429, and the .45/70 cartridge is also larger diameter than a .410 shotshell, as appears to be true, what's to stop you from re-reboring the barrel to .45/70? That would preserve the original markings (most of them- I presume you'd want to stamp the new caliber on the barrel for safety reasons). And it ought to be cheaper than either rebarreling or relining.

[Jim Watson]

.45-70 is a .450" bore, .458" groove so a rebore from .429" would be feasible if the chamber were not hogged out too big. Not a great risk, they make those .45 Colt - .410 shotpistols so a good .410 chamber is smaller than .45-70.

But a rebore is not necessarily cheaper than a reline, though less than a good replacement barrel. The old barrel has to be set up individually in the machine, reamed and rifled to spec. A reline just reams it to a standard size and glues or solders in a mass produced insert.
My reference outfit for rebore information is
http://www.deltagunshop.com/Clearwater/CW_services.html
but there are others if you wish to track them down.

[steveno]

what about having Turnbull have a look at it. he probably expensive but his name comes up a lot when old Winchesters are mentioned

[michaeld1004]

Thanks again for all the help! I have been making some calls and so far everyone recommends a new barrel.

I spoke with Turnbull and they charge $1300 for a new barrel (my choice of caliber, but most likely 45-70) with all the related work (headspace, chamber, dovetails, etc). And another couple hundred to do a complete disassembly and cleaning.

I also called a company called Ballard. They want $600 for a new barrel and for another $250-$300 they will disassemble, clean and case harden the receiver. Does anyone have any experience with them?

Also, does anyone have another company they can recommend?

Thanks!

-Mike D.

[Eghad]

You usually get what you pay for. I just refurbished an M-1 Garand from a reputable person who does that type work. The end product was worth the $1200 I spent.

So really its a question of who does the best work?

Looking at the Turnbull page they seem not only interested in restoring it but returning it to the factory original specs in all aspects. Looks like the extra $$ might buy you some extra TLC and attention to detail from Turnbull.

[Malamute]

You might want to contact Mike Hunter at Hunter restorations. He posts on levergunsforum as colt1849. If you do a search of KirkD posts, he has pics, before and after, of a Winchester 1886 that Mike Hunter did for him. Absolutely beautiful. New barrel, complete restoration, color case hardened receiver, high grade wood.

[gunsmither]

http://www.winchestercollector.org/f...wforum.php?f=3

Lot's of savvy Winchester collectors there.

Reboreing to .45/70 would be my personal preference, and leave the rest of the gun as is, after cleaning. Good luck whatever you decide. Those are mighty fine rifles.

[Rogue Rascal]

Winchester Model 1886 Cal 38-56

There is a very easy fix for this.
This rifle can be relined to the original caliber by:

541-533-0907

beinke & beinke liners,
24550 sprague river rd. ,
sprague river , oregon ,
97639

The cost is abouot $360. Mark has done 4 jobs for me and I am very happy with him.

[Mike Irwin]

.38-56 brass can be made from .45-70 or I believe .40-65 Winchester. Someone, but I'll be darned if I can remember who, is selling new brass.

The round was apparently touted as an improved, more powerful version of the .38-55 Ballard/Winchester.

Fat chance.

[Hawg]

Get some soft scrub and some non abrasive scrubbing pads and go to work. It'll take some elbow grease but will clean off the rust without scratching the metal. I've cleaned Civil War relics with this method and it works. I had a saber with a very rusty blade and it turned out to be a 63 Ames with etched blade. After it's clean you might be able to read the caliber stamp better. To make a chamber cast, plug the chamber about an inch into the rifling, get some cerro safe or you can use melted crayons but crayons are more fragile. Pour it in from the breech, you'll have to wedge the loading gate open to easily do this and fill the chamber. When it cools drive out the cast and plug with a wooden dowel down the muzzle, make sure the carrier isn't in the up position when you drive it out. You can now mic your cast and find out the caliber or take it to someone who can.

[Jim Watson]

In another thread, the OP says he has had the rifle rebarrelled to .45-70.