Roundball VS hollow-point

[NEPrepper]

None. Even a huge bullet will have better expansion as a HP than FMJ

[44 AMP]

Expansion is nice to have, but its not your friend ALL the time. It is a bit like fire, useful and beneficial when properly controlled, and a potential disaster, when its not.

[Webleymkv]

It would be highly dependent on how you define and measure "stopping power" and that is a topic for which there seems to be little, if any, consensus. If you take the velocity, weight, and bullet diameter of a .36 caliber round ball fired from a Colt 1851 Navy revolver, you're pretty close to that of a .380 ACP so that's probably where I'd start. 9mm uses the same diameter bullet as a .380, but it's heavier and at higher velocity so you're probably not going to match it with a .36 round ball. You might get your weight and velocity fairly close to a 147 gr subsonic 9mm by going to something like a .44 caliber round ball from a Colt 1860 Army, but the diameters are obviously different as is the bullet construction. In order to match a 9mm JHP when bullet expansion is taken into account, I would think you'd probably have to use a .44 from something like a Dragoon or Walker which can achieve a higher velocity and be using a very soft round ball made of pure lead, and even then you might not get there because the .44 RB may still not deform to the same diameter as the 9mm JHP.

Now if you start taking kinetic energy into the equation, things will get more complicated still as something like a Walker can push a round ball of about 140 gr to 1200+ fps with a full 60 gr load which is getting into .357 Magnum velocity, weight, and energy. That being said, the .44 RB will likely deform little, if any, in an erect biped and is more likely to simply generate through-and-through penetration as compared to a modern JHP.

Basically, no matter which way you look at it, you're going to have to go to something like a Dragoon or Walker to even hope to be comparable to a modern JHP in 9mm or bigger. The size of the gun you'd have to use would make it rather impractical as Walkers and Dragoons, even in the 1800's, were considered too large to be practical to carry on one's person (they were often referred to as "horse pistols" because they were usually carried in holsters on one's saddle). You simply aren't going to match the weight, diameter, velocity, and expansion of a 9mm JHP with a cap-and-ball "belt pistol" like Colt Navy, Colt Army, or Remington New Army and you won't even be in the same ballpark with something like a .31 Colt 1849 Pocket revolver. Round Balls simply aren't a very efficient bullet design and that's why they were replaced with things like conical bullets and Minnie Balls once those designs became available and practical. Unless there's nothing more modern available, there's really no good reason to choose a percussion revolver with round balls over a more modern firearm with modern ammunition.

[44 AMP]

there's really no good reason to choose a percussion revolver with round balls over a more modern firearm with modern ammunition.

For practical purposes you are, of course, right, but there might be some potential advantages since they are not modern firearms under Fed law, (check you state laws carefully) and can be mailed without requiring FFL dealers.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by 44 AMP
For practical purposes you are, of course, right, but there might be some potential advantages since they are not modern firearms under Fed law, (check you state laws carefully) and can be mailed without requiring FFL dealers.

I would argue that an antique cartridge firing gun would be a superior choice for one wishing to avoid FFL's and such. Even in the 19th century, percussion revolvers were rather primitive technology and were replaced once better options were available, affordable, and practical.

[stinkeypete]

No matter how you define "stopping power", round balls and black powder come up short.

Advantages:
those who have lost the ability to own firearms can have one.
historical and fun to shoot

Disadvantages:
A sphere doesn't carry half of the mass of a bullet shape
A sphere doesn't stabilize very well
Black powder doesn't get velocity going very well

So we don't have mass and we don't have velocity.

Deer hunting "up north", our white tails are bigger than down south. The traditional muzzle loading guys know that 50 cal is just weak tea compared to .54 or .58

The important thing is that a cap and ball revolver isn't a toy.

A 50 Cal round ball weighs about 175 grains. It's going about 800 feet per second.
Think of each bullet as being about the same as three .22 LR bullets hitting the target.

I certainly would not hunt deer with a Ruger Old Army, the best of the cap and ball revolvers. I would not even hunt deer with a round ball, although people do.

When I front-stuffed, I was using a 230 grain .45 cal XTP going at 30-30 velocities. Sometimes as fast as 30-06 velocities (the old Savage MLII and I was really pushing my luck but it hit like an elephant gun on both sides of the recoil pad. Biggest hole I ever punched in a deer.)

So... stopping power...I like to talk like I really shoot guns, not play video games with them.

Aint nobody going to voluntarily stand in front of a cap and ball revolver. It's not a toy.

[bamaranger]

Stinky, I'm having a bit of trouble following your last post around midpoint.

A .50 RB does weigh in the neighborhood of 175 grains. I'm not sure what the connection is to 800 fps? Perhaps you were referring to a .50 RB as fired from a single shot frontier type pistol? A heavily loaded .50 RB in a rifle will approach 1800 fps, is that what you intended? The suggestion that a .50 RB is equal to three rounds of .22lr landing simultaneously is lost on me.

I would also agree that the Ruger Old Army is the finest C&B revolver ever made, I dearly wish I owned one, acquired at a fair price. There is quite a bit of background to hunting with the Ruger. You may not ever hunt deer with one, but apparently a number of folks have. There is also a good bit of chronograph data for the revolver. Basically it will drive it's 145 gr (?) RB to solidly over 900 fps, and the flat nosed specialty Kaido 255 gr SWC bullets to 750 fps. That's basically Cowboy Action .45 Colt numbers. Again, not a toy, but I wouldn't really want to hunt critters much over 100 lbs with one.

[mehavey]

I figure the 1860 Army/RB was about equivalent to today's vanilla 38 Special/FMJ.

Then I go work other world-shaking problems like whether cartridge cases have headspace.

[bamaranger]

If you can believe Ed SANOW'S "Wild Bill's Colts....." article I referenced earlier
(written in '95), the .44 RB in the Colt and Rem Army revolvers was no slouch and he compared it favorably to expanding .44 Spl ammo. Sanow shot gelatin, and compared the gelatin damage to damage and ballistic numbers from modern pistol ammo. He then referred to his study on "one shot stops" and came up with a stop percentage and a modern equivalent. With max charges and full length 7-8" bbls, and dead soft roundballs, the service .44 were head and shoulders ahead of their little brother .36's.

Probably a better comparison for .38 FMJ or LRN are the .36's, same appx diameter projectile and somewhat similar weight. The .44 C&B revolvers, with their larger frontal areal (even with the simple RB) and heavier powder charges surpass .38 ammo (according to SANOW ),

[stinkeypete]

Sorry about being unclear, Bama. I am just not clear sometimes!

We're in the handgun forums so I'm saying about as fast as one can push a 50 cal round ball in a single shot front stuffer pistol would be about 800 fps or about 3 .22 LRs. The old army is .45 cal. or a little less.

And trying to express that even in traditional long front stuffers, the elite guys shooting round balls prefer a bigger bore even though they are going at least TWICE AS FAST. The bullet-shaped projectile is a big improvement over the ball, and it's what people learned that works. (Minie ball stuff.. history, etc.)

My main point is that for me, "stopping power" comes in two flavors-
Would I hunt deer with a round ball revolver? No.
Would I volunteer to stand in front of one? HECK NO.

To me, not much else matters.

Once can calculate the kinetic energy and momentum.
You can see what people use deer hunting. As you point out, the rifle guys are using 50 cal balls going about twice as fast as a pistol round and it's still not a beefy deer round.
You can shoot blocks of jello, but if you're attacked by a block of jello, I say "just run away, they are slow."

[bamaranger]

You unclear or me me slow on uptake?

Yeah, I get it. I'm a conical bullet guy myself when I hunt whitetails with my traditional side hammer rifles. Gel serves as a yardstick, a means of comparison. The most silly yardstick I've seen is guys shooting water jugs. Fun to watch though.

[armoredman]

Now I have to wonder what speed I can get out of Da Boy's Muzzle Loading Hip Howitzer...



Single shot 54 caliber hand built front stuffer...hmm, this could be fun.