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Old February 14, 2011, 11:09 PM   #151
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It's like Shadow1198 said,

the only reason we're even talking about these guys is because what

they did to prepare for a confrontation was so incredibly unusual.

They get a special chapter all their own in many SWAT books.

IMO, in the 1 in 100,000 case where people do something like this,

there is just NO WAY the LEOs could have been prepared.

Given the narrow likelihood of a re-occurrence, it would be

almost wasteful for cops to over-prepare for it.

We are talking about THE North Hollywood shootout, the one they

made the movie HEAT about, remember?

Look at it like this:

There may be a good possibility the earth may flood before somebody like

these guys shows up on the scene again.

Should LEOs carry an inflatable ARK around in their trunk too?

Cops equipment is designed to deal with a high percentage of emergencies.

There is no way they can second-guess EVERY call and proper response.
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Old February 14, 2011, 11:22 PM   #152
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A lack of ANY long rifles.
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Old February 15, 2011, 11:45 AM   #153
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You know why don't we discuss two incidents with armored vehicles. In one a guy commandeered a tank and went for a ride. In another a guy built his own tank. Why weren't the police prepared with AT weapons in their cars or the police should have had Apaches or A-10s on patrol?

I supposed on TLF in Metropolis, people are critiquing the MPD for not having kryptonite bullets for when General Zod appeared?

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Old February 15, 2011, 12:08 PM   #154
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there is just NO WAY the LEOs could have been prepared.
Actually, this isn't quite right. Had LAPD allowed officers to have slugs for their shotguns and not just buckshot, the fight might have been over much sooner. I forget when officer it was, but he had a shotgun early in the fight was something like 50 yards distant from the shooters. He hit them with buckshot, but no real harm done.

At 50 yards, he certainly could have taken head shots. At 100, he could has well, even with a smple bead sight. It does tend to be easier to hit targets at longer ranges when the weapon you are using has a longer sight radius.

So basically, one small equipment change could have made a real difference, but LAPD didn't want their patrol officers shooting slugs and so they weren't armed with any.
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Old February 15, 2011, 12:12 PM   #155
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We are talking about THE North Hollywood shootout, the one they

made the movie HEAT about, remember?
Heat came out in 1995; the shootout was in 97. A documentary on the shootout claimed the two shooters were inspired by the movie.
"Its better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it." -- Clarence Worley in True Romance
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Old February 15, 2011, 06:42 PM   #156
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OK, ah, OOPS?

Still don't think it's reasonable to expect LEOs to be prepared for 100%

of all calls they take. Somebody's always going to think of something new,

and while our hind sight has 20/20 vision(even though my memory,

admittedly, sucks) none of us here had the foresight to warn the LAPD

in advance of this carnage ridden incident.
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Old February 16, 2011, 08:33 PM   #157
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That show was on again last night. I know nothing about LEO/military infantry tng. or tactical procedures.
One or two officers in West Memphis were killed several months ago during a minor (they assumed) traffic stop.

The father and son attackers jumped out and blasted away with at least one semi-auto AK clone, and the officers by their car right behind the attackers, totally unprepared, had no idea that the aggressors were out to 'zap' any LEOs, for the slightest reason. They were extreme anti-govt. types who had been under surveillance in Indiana or Ohio.

Their license plate seemed to have raised an alert as it was checked, but whether the officers were aware before they stepped from their patrol car and had no more safe cover, I have no idea.

The LEOs seem to have only returned fire with handguns, and the bag guys left and were finally stopped by the Walmart after an LEO in another car rammed into them, and the firefight killed the anarchists.

A coworker's husband is a detective in another eastern AR town, and one of the other patrol officers has his personal Mini 14 (.223) with a fancy sight.
Wouldn't you prefer a rifle which uses larger rounds, i.e. an AR-10 or PTR 91 ('G-3') in .308 etc, as larger rds. seem to punch better through windshields and car doors at shallow angles?

Last edited by Ignition Override; February 16, 2011 at 08:47 PM.
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Old February 16, 2011, 09:10 PM   #158
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There are a number of time LEO is seen 'hiding' behind the vehicles and clearly visibkle through the windows.

I saw the video from LAPD at Gunsite before it was available.

One of the instrucitrs wanted us to see it as an example if why you should have at least some experience with long range handgun shooting.

There were numerous opportunities fir a 50-60 yard head shot against a nearly stationary target.
The perps would stand and fire without moving.

The problem is without some training and practice such shots are VERY hard to make.
(The instructor's words, and he is a LEO instructor/trainer).
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