Reloading 9mm Luger problem

[mehavey]

I did (see op cit)

[74A95]

Originally Posted by mehavey

I did (see op cit)

Say it again so that I and others understand what you're trying to say. No need to be cryptic about it.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by 74A95

Yup. .371-.374 from my measurements.

Originally Posted by mehavey

Wow..... That far under SAAMI ?
.

SAAMI minimum is .373, so not that far under.

[mehavey]

SAAMI minimum is .373, so not that far under.

Where's that tolerance indicated in the SAAMI drawing/Post #74
(I usually look for one but did not see it)

[74A95]

Originally Posted by higgite

SAAMI minimum is .373, so not that far under.

Yup.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by mehavey

Where's that tolerance indicated in the SAAMI drawing/Post #74
(I usually look for one but did not see it)

Unless otherwise noted, body diameter -.007. It's right under the CARTRIDGE title.

[mehavey]

I would never have thought that applied to the mouth area, as that would
imply sizing the 355 bullet down by the same amount was OK.

(Being a cast bullet guy, that's to be avoided)

[74A95]

The bullets have their own specs (.3555 -.003). For the 9mm, anything between .3525 and .3555 are within spec.

But case dimensions also depend on the thickness of the brass. You rarely find any loaded 9mm ammo that measures the max SAAMI spec of .380 at the mouth or just below the mouth. Nearly everything will be smaller than the max SAAMI spec.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by mehavey

I would never have thought that applied to the mouth area, as that would
imply sizing the 355 bullet down by the same amount was OK.

(Being a cast bullet guy, that's to be avoided)

SAAMI leaves it up to the manufacturer to match bullet diameters with case wall thicknesses that will meet both the bullet and the cartridge specs when assembled.

[rc]

Some 9mm guns can be loaded with 357 bullets if that's all you got and loaded rounds fit your chamber. You don't need to crimp into a lead auto pistol bullet. You just need to iron the case mouth flat. Crimp just needs to be snug enough not to be able to push the bullets into the case by hand. If you pull a loaded bullet and you can see an obvious depression or an hour glass shape created by over crimping something needs to change. If you just have a scratch line on a bullet from seating, no big deal.

Here is how I recommend you set your seat/crimp die.
Make sure you have enough flare on your cases to accept the base of your desired cast bullets maybe 1/16 to 1/8 inch down from the mouth so they can be pushed in smoothly by the seater stem with some resistance from neck tension. With lead bullets more flare is required than with jacketed bullets to reduce scraping the sides and removing the lube during seating. If you are shaving rings of lead off your bullets you definitely need more flare in the expanding die or less crimp in the seater die. Next, Unscrew your seater die so it won't crimp at all but screw down your seating stem to seat a bullet into a practice case without powder or primer to the depth you want. Once you have that dummy round with the bullet seated to the correct depth, back out your seating stem and holding the ram on your press in the raised position start slowly screwing the seater die body down into the top of your press. You will feel slight resistance when the die starts to take the flare out of your case. Keep holding the ram at the top of the stroke and slowly screwing the die into the press until you feel firm resistance. Back your dummy round out of the die and give the die maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn beyond firm then finish your crimp bringing the dummy to the top of the press stroke one last time. It should result in a solid crimp without over crimping. Lock your crimp die to that depth in your press. Then, with your dummy round still in the die, screw in the seater stem until you feel it snug against the bullet tip, then lock that down and try loading one more dummy round in a second case. Usually that will be a little longer. If it's too long to chamber smoothly, screw down the seater stem a half turn and lock it in place again. Take your second dummy round and bump it down with the new shorter adjustment on the seater stem and check for length and feeding in your gun. Once you know you've got the bullet seating die correctly adjusted, then start cranking out loaded rounds with powder and primer. Learning to seat and crimp bullets correctly can be a trial and error process at first, but after you understand how much flare you need and how to set up your seat/crimp die the reloading process gets easier and your ammo gets better.

One other thing. By chance are you using Lee dies? I prefer RCBS dies with actual lock rings. My preferred dies are made by RCBS. Hornady dies are pretty well made too but I don't like sliding seater stems. The one new Lyman set I bought was full of mettle shavings and I sent it back. Any lee factory crimp dies I own, now have Hornady or RCBS lock rings to keep them from walking out of adjustment.

[Recycled bullet]

This is the mp357125 hollow point. I have drawn the red arrows to show the small step on the bullet. I seat the bullet so that the case mouth is even with the step and that when I go to crimp as a separate step there is now a space available for the crimp to go so it is not shrinking the drive band diameter of the bullet.

[rc]

If that's a pulled bullet it does look like you've got the right amount of crimp. It just looks like you are over crimping in the picture with the loaded brass because the case mouth looks like it folds in a bit and I personally had to learn not to apply too much crimp and just iron things out. That looks like a nice bullet but I hate casting hollow points. I've got one of the rare Lyman 32 -20 cast bullet molds shaped like that one but I'm not ready to give it up because it's a cool one to have for my 32s.

[44 AMP]

Ammo that fits, feeds, and functions in your gun is not wrong. It might not be completely "right" but, if it works, its not wrong.

[Recycled bullet]

It is NOT a pulled bullet. I have not disassembled one of these bullets from a loaded cartridge, I have not had reason to pull one apart. It is a powder by the pound brand ultimate chrome powder -coated sized 357 bullet cast of 90% lead, 5%tin, 5% antimony.

I shot them accurately at paper plates loaded in 38 special and 9x19 over Winchester Auto Comp gunpowder.

In 38 special I loaded them over 6 grains of gun powder and shot them from my 357 Magnum 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk.

In 9mm I loaded them over 4.3 grains of gun powder and shot thousands of them through my CZ P09.

I load ammunition with the lee hand press. When I crimp the 9mm I can feel the brass getting drawn out, exterior of the cartridge is under tension getting stretched out as crimp is applied.




These pictured bullets are the ultimate gloss clear powder coat.

[mehavey]

lee hand press. When I crimp the 9mm I can feel the brass getting drawn out,
exterior of the cartridge is under tension getting stretched out as crimp is applied.

Do you mean compression?
(I'm unsure how pressing a cartridge into a die produces tension)

[Recycled bullet]

I wish that I could hand my press to you and you could feel it for yourself.

[mehavey]

I was looking at the Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2TeFVvw6Cc
I appears to operate as a traditional "press"
except not being mounted on a bench top,

[Recycled bullet]

My theory about what happens is that as the crimping operation occurs the cartridge casing gets drawn out. During the crimping operation I can see and feel the exterior of the cartridge casing becoming under tension.

If you have hand loaded 38 specials with 358429 I'm sure you have experienced this before.

[mehavey]

The upper body of the case is progressively pushed in toward the center as it enters the tapered upper
section of the die. And then (if the die body is screwed down further), the mouth is simultaneously
pushed/rolled over at the end of the stroke

[Unclenick]

Case mouth spec is 0.3800" - 0.007", so 0.3730" to 0.3800". If the case mouth crimp doesn't get it below 0.3873", then even a worst-case wide SAAMI spec chamber will still headspace on the case mouth.

[Metal god]

when I go to crimp as a separate step there is now a space available for the crimp to go so it is not shrinking the drive band diameter of the bullet.

Can you explain what you mean there ? Are you saying if there is no crimp groove the die and press are unable to crimp into the bullet jacket or even the soft lead ?

If so , I counter with

223 - 77gr SMK on right


200gr 45acp plated HP = light , Medium and heavy crimps all fire from my 45's

[Recycled bullet]

Originally Posted by Metal god

Can you explain what you mean there ? Are you saying if there is no crimp groove the die and press are unable to crimp into the bullet jacket or even the soft lead ?



If so , I counter with



223 - 77gr SMK on right





200gr 45acp plated HP = light , Medium and heavy crimps all fire from my 45's

What I mean to communicate when I posted #86 is:

The bullet design is such that I can assemble ammunition using the the step or shelf on the bullets ogive as a visual indication of proper bullet seating depth,

and then when I crimp in that location there is space available for the crimp to go that does not interfere with the bullets drive band diameter as may possibly occur if I seated and crimped further towards the bullets base.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Case mouth spec is 0.3800" - 0.007", so 0.3873" to 0.3800". If the case mouth crimp doesn't get it below 0.3873", then even a worst-case wide SAAMI spec chamber will still headspace on the case mouth.

I think you mean 0.373, not 0.3873. Or at least I hope you do.

Actually, even the small number I mentioned in a previous post of a case mouth of 0.371 will also headspace correctly on the case mouth. In fact, you could have a heavy crimp that reduces the case mouth down to 0.3630 and it will still headspace, even in a worst case SAAMI spec chamber.

How is that possible? Because people have been focusing on the case mouth spec without taking into account the ledge in the chamber that the case mouth headspaces on. The SAAMI spec for that is 0.3580 + .004. That leaves a range for ledge diameter from 0.3580 to 0.3620". As long as the case mouth diameter is larger than 0.3620, it will headspace correctly.

[Metal god]

Got it , Thanks

MG

[Recycled bullet]

Here are two pictures showing both halves of the MP357125 four cavity brass hollow point bullet casting mold.