Reloading 9mm Luger problem

[rc]

Something like Blue Dot is compressed in 9mm but something like 231 tends to have a lot more room in the case. As long as I'm within book specs for powder charge I've never had a problem.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

Might you mean you mark the dowel at the level of the case mouth? Though, I suppose, technically, the case mouth has a rim, too, just not a flanged one.

HighValleyRanch:

A simple computation:

Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length - COL

Determine your seating depth, as above, and open your caliper jaws to that number. Park the back of the beam on the edge of the case mouth and add powder until it is level with the beam. Weigh the charge, and you will know how much you can put in before you start compressing the load.

Note that the above will change with cases, so you want to find a range. Sample some of your heaviest and lightest cases to get some idea of what difference you are dealing with. There is no commercial case capacity specification; just exterior dimension limits.

Note that powder density varies some by lot. Western Powders, before Hodgdon bought them, used to publish bulk density and its lot-to-lot tolerance, and ±5.6% (a span of 11.2%) was the largest one, and ±2.2% (4.4% span) was the smallest. So, you will have to make this determination again when you buy more powder.


AlanWK,

Do your resized and untrimmed but not yet expanded cases plunk into but protrude from the back end of the barrel? If so, take a caliper to them. If they do not exceed the SAAMI maximum case length of 0.745" but are sticking out and are plunking in without dragging on the sides of your chamber, the chamber is too short and out of spec. A gunsmith can fix that. But if they are longer than 0.745" at that point, it may be you have a tight (small base) resizing die, and it is squeezing the brass out too long, requiring you to trim. Still, you should only need to trim once with 9mm Luger cases, and they should be good to go using that resizing die after that.

Of course, silly me, I should have said case mouth.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by 74A95

Why the concern with whether the powder is compressed?

I’m just going by the Lyman 50th edition, bottom of page 40 and top of page 41. Now that being said I have played around with compressed charges in 9mm before with no problems. But, I’m not going to suggest someone else do this in a public forum that’s probably being read by a novice reloader who hasn’t quite learned how to judge signs of over pressure.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

I’m just going by the Lyman 50th edition, bottom of page 40 and top of page 41. Now that being said I have played around with compressed charges in 9mm before with no problems. But, I’m not going to suggest someone else do this in a public forum that’s probably being read by a novice reloader who hasn’t quite learned how to judge signs of over pressure.

I'm surprised to see that in Lyman's guide. Some powder charges are normally compressed in handgun loads, and I have not seen that warning anywhere else in other guides.

Here is what Hodgdon says about compressed loads:

COMPRESSED LOADS
Normally a pistol or rifle shellcase is considered full, or 100% loading density, when the powder charge sits at the base of the bullet when the bullet is fully seated. It is possible with some powders and cartridges to increase the powder charge slightly above this point, such that when the bullet is seated it actually compresses the powder charge slightly. This condition is known as a compressed load.

Hodgdon notes in its reloading data if the subject charge is a compressed load. A full case, or lightly compressed charge is an ideal condition for creating loads with the most uniform velocities and pressures, and oftentimes, producing top accuracy.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/compressed-loads

Lyman also uses the term "overly" compressed loads, and that might be an issue with some powders. But compressed is not usually a problem, and it does not happen that often when following published load data. Generally, with most powders, the charge weight will reach maximum SAAMI pressure limits before the powder gets compressed anyway.

[44 AMP]

Generally, with most powders, the charge weight will reach maximum SAAMI pressure limits before the powder gets compressed anyway.

With most handguns cartridges and their powders, perhaps.

There are lots of rifle rounds where compressed loads are standard with certain powders.

[jetinteriorguy]

Compressing a load in a small case such as 9mm using some powders can be very touchy as well, Titegroup comes to mind with me since at a certain level of pressure it can get very spikey very fast and is quite unpredictable. Especially if someone is using range brass with mixed head stamps and varying degrees of interior space. Add in a new hand loader that is maybe a little overzealous with a crimp and boom.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Compressing a load in a small case such as 9mm using some powders can be very touchy as well, Titegroup comes to mind with me since at a certain level of pressure it can get very spikey very fast and is quite unpredictable. Especially if someone is using range brass with mixed head stamps and varying degrees of interior space. Add in a new hand loader that is maybe a little overzealous with a crimp and boom.

What's required here is actual pressure data. We can 'imagine' any scenario we want, but it has to be backed up with pressure test data. Is there data on how much crimp affects pressure with Titegroup?

[mehavey]

...how much crimp affects pressure with Titegroup?

As noted before, one does not crimp 9mm

[Recycled bullet]

Which one does not crimp 9 mm?

This one most assuredly does.

My crimps most definitely roll into the ogive of the projectile.

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by Recycled bullet

Which one does not crimp 9 mm?

This one most assuredly does.

My crimps most definitely roll into the ogive of the projectile.

This doesn't sound kosher. 9mm headspaces on mouth. Roll crimp on to ogive ... This one is loading for revolver?

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Recycled bullet]

No I am loading for magazine fed semi-automatic handguns like czpo9 and Springfield armory hellcat pro.

[Recycled bullet]

[mehavey]

Which one does not crimp 9 mm?
This one most assuredly does.
My crimps most definitely roll into the ogive of the projectile.

Uuuuuhhh....
I'm going to let the rest of the audience handle this one.

[44 AMP]

I crimp my 9mm rounds. A light taper crimp seems to help with feeding.

Taper is the recommended method, roll crimp can work, A)if there it enough "ledge" at the case mouth to stop the round in the right place in the chamber, or, (more often) B) roll crimp not catching on the chamber and the round "heasdspacing" on the extractor.

This method does work in many guns where the case rim is fed up underneath the extractor. Not so much with guns that are "push feed" or dropping a single round into the chamber and closing the slide on it.

A roll crimp 9mm isn't a very good idea in an SA revolver (or a Contender single shot) where the case must headspace on the mouth. Irrelevant in a DA revolver using moon clips.

[Recycled bullet]

A light taper crimp seems to help with feeding.

^^^this right there

[mehavey]

Taper crimp is not roll crimp (which on a mouth-headspacing case is a no-no)
And were even that (tapering) past a case mouth diameter of 0.379/8 or so beneficial....

...why wouldn't commercial ammunition come that way to guarantee feed/function in life/death situations?



postscript: I'm reloading both jacketed & cast, for six different 9mm autos -- full-size to micro.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by mehavey

Uuuuuhhh....
I'm going to let the rest of the audience handle this one.

Agreed. No sense in one beating one's head against a wall.

[Metal god]

I remove the bell which does result in some crimp . It doesn’t have too , but mine does Ever so slightly alll be it. The question is , does any inward deformation of the case mouth constitute a crimp regardless of how light it is? Id say yes

[rc]

I used to over crimp my rounds. Then I pulled some bullets and realized I was creating hour glass shaped bullets. I would suggest you get the crimp snug flat against those lead bullets like the one on the right. The two on the left in your hand look very over crimped.

[Recycled bullet]

All three bullets are crimped the same amount. The bullets have a small shelf on the ogive and I set the case mouth there and then crimp into it.

I'll make a picture tomorrow.

Loaded this way they load, feed,fire, hit the paper plate, extract empty 100% in every gun I have ever tested them in.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by mehavey

Taper crimp is not roll crimp (which on a mouth-headspacing case is a no-no)
And were even that (tapering) past a case mouth diameter of 0.379/8 or so beneficial....

...why wouldn't commercial ammunition come that way to guarantee feed/function in life/death situations?

Some do have a taper crimp.

[mehavey]

Some do have a taper crimp.

past that of a 0.378/0.379 mouth?

[74A95]

Originally Posted by mehavey

past that of a 0.378/0.379 mouth?

Yup. .371-.374 from my measurements.

[mehavey]

Wow..... That far under SAAMI ?

{Edit: See board policy on posting copyrighted materials}

(my Remington's are measuring 0.376 at the mouth just now, so I guess maybe so . . .
Live and (re)learn.

.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by mehavey

Wow.....
(all I can say)

Why? What's wrong with that? You can say more than that.