Colt 45 Gold Cup rear sight screw. - Page 2

grendelbane · August 14, 2005, 01:36 AM

Replacing the trigger and the sights on my Series 70 Gold Cup were 2 of the best mods I have ever made to any pistol!

Whoever threw away the box for me is guilty of the worst.

Dave Sample · August 14, 2005, 02:35 PM

I do not think a big heavy steel trigger should be in a Gold Cup. They put that stupid trigger in and then had to install a little tiny spring and lever on the sear to keep it from bouncing from the weight of that trigger. They must have been smoking some great stuff that week! I like the Aftermarket Aluminum Trigger replacement and then I can get rid of that crap on the sear and get a decent trigger pull. Colt has never listened to the people who spend their money with them, they are too arrogant and know it all.

**Unclenick** · August 14, 2005, 08:22 PM

Carpfisher,

I re-read your question and realized nobody had answered you on the advantages. There are two: safety and fit.

The fit comes about because the new trigger will either be oversize or very slightly undersize. If it is oversize you will have to scrap or file it to fit. If it is undersize, because it is aluminum it will be very easy to upset the 4 corners of the trigger body, then scrape or file them to fit.

The more important item is the safety issue. It is the "bounce" Dave referred to. When you let the slide go forward to chamber a round, it accelerates in a graduated fashion as the recoil spring pushes it forward. That same spring also works with equal and opposite force against the frame rearward, imparting an opposite direction momentum to the rest of the gun, including the trigger. When the gun goes into battery, the slide comes to a fairly abrupt stop against the assembly pin. This means the slide’s forward momentum is transferred to the frame via the assembly pin, neutralizing the frame’s rearward momentum. That is Newton's law of conservation of momentum—were it not so, the 1911 would be some kind of free energy machine.

The problem with all this is nothing tells the trigger the momentum is being neutralized. The frame may cease rearward movement, or even gain some from the spring of the hand behind it, but inertia keeps the trigger going toward the rear. If the middle leaf of the flat spring doesn’t apply enough force to stop the trigger and disconnector, the disconnector is pushed into the sear by this momentum. At this point, the only thing preventing the hammer from dropping and firing the round is opposing pressure from the left leaf of the flat spring on the sear feet, the engagement release force at the sear and hammer hooks from mainspring pressure, and the inertial mass of these objects. If the trigger has enough inertia, it will overcome this opposition and drop the hammer and discharge the weapon when you close the slide.

You can test your gun for this problem. Unload the gun and tear it down far enough to get the hammer out. Use a toothpick to stuff the half-cock notch with paper towel. This is so that, should your gun drop into half-cock during this test, it doesn’t bang up your finely tuned sear nose. Put it back together. Don't load it. Pull the slide back and push the slide stop up to hold it in place. Point it muzzle up (worst case, since gravity is now acting on the trigger mass as well). Hold the grip panels lightly between the thumb and fingers of your right hand (again, worst case: limp grip). Now use the thumb of your left hand to depress the slide stop and let the slide slam into battery. If the hammer drops, you have the problem.

The best solution includes reducing the mass of the trigger so it has less rearward momentum imparted by its travel with the frame as the slide accelerates forward. This is the value of aluminum over steel in this application. The other elements are not to have cut your hammer hooks too low or with too shallow an angle, nor to have taken too much pressure off your flat spring leaves, nor have too weak a mainspring, nor have a sub-tangent angle on the sear nose. In other words, don't go for too light a trigger or you will be sensitive to this problem even with an aluminum trigger.

I went so far as to try a super light carbon fiber composite trigger on my school gun. But I didn't like the feel (not as smoothly lubed feeling as metal) and I didn't trust the stability of the overtravel screw threaded into that soft material.

Nick

Dave Sample · August 15, 2005, 12:13 PM

Great post by Uncle Nick! Let me just add a little bit to it.

The Gold Cup hammer and sear were re designed by Colt and I have to give them an A+ for what they did here. The sear has a relief cut in the middle so that if the hammer goes hard to 1/2 cock, the sear nose is not touched by the hammer hooks. The Gold Cup hammer has a very small area in the center between the hammer hooks for the 1/2 cock notch so that the hammer hooks and sear nose are never touched at 1/2 cock and remain pristine for the life of the parts.

The Gold Cup hammer also has a different hammer strut pin location so that the geometry of the whole system is different that a GI 1911, for instance. It is a great improvement and most of the modern 1911's now use that geometry. When I was doing trigger work ion the good old days, I replaced all of the trigger group with aftermarket parts, or passed on the job. I have spent two days on that old system and was unhappy with the job when I gave up on it. No Thanks on that deal.

These are aftermarket spur hammers with the Gold Cup 1/2 cock notches. I took these pictures at the Shot Show becuase of my new interest in "Reto 1911's" in 38 Super.

carpfisher · August 15, 2005, 02:14 PM

Wow!
What a response. I am going to have to print this and read it a few times to comprehend everything it says.
That is kind of information that you usually have to pay money for. This is a great forum!
As mentioned earlier whe I was discussing my Front sight mods, I use Marianne Caniak, Accurizer Gun Shop. I am going to forward the link to this to her and have her quote doing this job to the gun. It sure sounds like the right thing to do. I haven't any issue with the Load-slide-"Bang" probability, or should I say yet. I shoot this gun at least 150 rounds a week and I am leading the summer PPC league so it will have to wait for a bit but if she can get the parts organized, at least the downtime should be minimized.

Thanks again for the great response!
Greg

Psychoconker · January 11, 2006, 02:42 AM

(found this thread and sit searching for a reason)

I just turned 21 as of dec 31 05 and for a birthday present my uncle bought me a brand new colt gold cup trophy (SS). this has an adjustable elliason rear sight on it. well we went to the firing range to shoot it and after about 14 rounds i noticed the site started to pop up and down. well seems the elevation adjustment screw came lose and popped out of this brand new gun. i was shocked. seems a spring came out too. lucily we found 1 screw and 1 spring ( don't know if there is another). i put the spring back were it seemed to fit, and the screwed the screw back in. it itghtened up and seemed ok until i shot it again. and the scre didn't come out but came up, moveing the site up. now i try and screw it back in and it wont stay down at all and seems to not catch the threads. i have no idea what to do. i haven't had time to go to the gunsmith and was wondering if maybe the screw is broke or what could be broke? the little pin the clicks on the site of the screwhead is stil there and clicks when screwing the screw in. any advise? what shoudl i do to fix?

**Unclenick** · January 14, 2006, 04:40 PM

The simplest thing is to send it to Colt for repair. This has the advantage that you can ask them to check the whole gun over and be sure the rest is working. You don't need and FFL to return a gun to the factory. That exception was put in the law so people wouldn't be discouraged from getting unsafe guns fixed. They can return it to you at the same address it came from. Call Colt customer service to ask particulars. 1-800-962-COLT.

What was wrong is as what started this thread. Your screw detent wasn't working properly. The elevation screw should click firmly up and down. The click is the detent bar snapping into the little recesses in the screw head. If this doesn't happen the screw is free to turn. Read the whole thread for that detail. When you can't get the screw in, you may be pushing it down over top of the detent.

Nick

August 14, 2005, 01:36 AM	#26
grendelbane Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Posts: 66	Replacing the trigger and the sights on my Series 70 Gold Cup were 2 of the best mods I have ever made to any pistol! Whoever threw away the box for me is guilty of the worst.

August 14, 2005, 02:35 PM	#27
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	I do not think a big heavy steel trigger should be in a Gold Cup. They put that stupid trigger in and then had to install a little tiny spring and lever on the sear to keep it from bouncing from the weight of that trigger. They must have been smoking some great stuff that week! I like the Aftermarket Aluminum Trigger replacement and then I can get rid of that crap on the sear and get a decent trigger pull. Colt has never listened to the people who spend their money with them, they are too arrogant and know it all.

August 14, 2005, 08:22 PM	#28
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Carpfisher, I re-read your question and realized nobody had answered you on the advantages. There are two: safety and fit. The fit comes about because the new trigger will either be oversize or very slightly undersize. If it is oversize you will have to scrap or file it to fit. If it is undersize, because it is aluminum it will be very easy to upset the 4 corners of the trigger body, then scrape or file them to fit. The more important item is the safety issue. It is the "bounce" Dave referred to. When you let the slide go forward to chamber a round, it accelerates in a graduated fashion as the recoil spring pushes it forward. That same spring also works with equal and opposite force against the frame rearward, imparting an opposite direction momentum to the rest of the gun, including the trigger. When the gun goes into battery, the slide comes to a fairly abrupt stop against the assembly pin. This means the slide’s forward momentum is transferred to the frame via the assembly pin, neutralizing the frame’s rearward momentum. That is Newton's law of conservation of momentum—were it not so, the 1911 would be some kind of free energy machine. The problem with all this is nothing tells the trigger the momentum is being neutralized. The frame may cease rearward movement, or even gain some from the spring of the hand behind it, but inertia keeps the trigger going toward the rear. If the middle leaf of the flat spring doesn’t apply enough force to stop the trigger and disconnector, the disconnector is pushed into the sear by this momentum. At this point, the only thing preventing the hammer from dropping and firing the round is opposing pressure from the left leaf of the flat spring on the sear feet, the engagement release force at the sear and hammer hooks from mainspring pressure, and the inertial mass of these objects. If the trigger has enough inertia, it will overcome this opposition and drop the hammer and discharge the weapon when you close the slide. You can test your gun for this problem. Unload the gun and tear it down far enough to get the hammer out. Use a toothpick to stuff the half-cock notch with paper towel. This is so that, should your gun drop into half-cock during this test, it doesn’t bang up your finely tuned sear nose. Put it back together. Don't load it. Pull the slide back and push the slide stop up to hold it in place. Point it muzzle up (worst case, since gravity is now acting on the trigger mass as well). Hold the grip panels lightly between the thumb and fingers of your right hand (again, worst case: limp grip). Now use the thumb of your left hand to depress the slide stop and let the slide slam into battery. If the hammer drops, you have the problem. The best solution includes reducing the mass of the trigger so it has less rearward momentum imparted by its travel with the frame as the slide accelerates forward. This is the value of aluminum over steel in this application. The other elements are not to have cut your hammer hooks too low or with too shallow an angle, nor to have taken too much pressure off your flat spring leaves, nor have too weak a mainspring, nor have a sub-tangent angle on the sear nose. In other words, don't go for too light a trigger or you will be sensitive to this problem even with an aluminum trigger. I went so far as to try a super light carbon fiber composite trigger on my school gun. But I didn't like the feel (not as smoothly lubed feeling as metal) and I didn't trust the stability of the overtravel screw threaded into that soft material. Nick

August 15, 2005, 12:13 PM	#29
Dave Sample Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2004 Location: Prescott, AZ Posts: 1,002	Great post by Uncle Nick! Let me just add a little bit to it. The Gold Cup hammer and sear were re designed by Colt and I have to give them an A+ for what they did here. The sear has a relief cut in the middle so that if the hammer goes hard to 1/2 cock, the sear nose is not touched by the hammer hooks. The Gold Cup hammer has a very small area in the center between the hammer hooks for the 1/2 cock notch so that the hammer hooks and sear nose are never touched at 1/2 cock and remain pristine for the life of the parts. The Gold Cup hammer also has a different hammer strut pin location so that the geometry of the whole system is different that a GI 1911, for instance. It is a great improvement and most of the modern 1911's now use that geometry. When I was doing trigger work ion the good old days, I replaced all of the trigger group with aftermarket parts, or passed on the job. I have spent two days on that old system and was unhappy with the job when I gave up on it. No Thanks on that deal. These are aftermarket spur hammers with the Gold Cup 1/2 cock notches. I took these pictures at the Shot Show becuase of my new interest in "Reto 1911's" in 38 Super.

August 15, 2005, 02:14 PM	#30
carpfisher Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Location: Fowlerville, MI Posts: 122	Wow! What a response. I am going to have to print this and read it a few times to comprehend everything it says. That is kind of information that you usually have to pay money for. This is a great forum! As mentioned earlier whe I was discussing my Front sight mods, I use Marianne Caniak, Accurizer Gun Shop. I am going to forward the link to this to her and have her quote doing this job to the gun. It sure sounds like the right thing to do. I haven't any issue with the Load-slide-"Bang" probability, or should I say yet. I shoot this gun at least 150 rounds a week and I am leading the summer PPC league so it will have to wait for a bit but if she can get the parts organized, at least the downtime should be minimized. Thanks again for the great response! Greg

January 11, 2006, 02:42 AM	#31
Psychoconker Junior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Posts: 1	(found this thread and sit searching for a reason) I just turned 21 as of dec 31 05 and for a birthday present my uncle bought me a brand new colt gold cup trophy (SS). this has an adjustable elliason rear sight on it. well we went to the firing range to shoot it and after about 14 rounds i noticed the site started to pop up and down. well seems the elevation adjustment screw came lose and popped out of this brand new gun. i was shocked. seems a spring came out too. lucily we found 1 screw and 1 spring ( don't know if there is another). i put the spring back were it seemed to fit, and the screwed the screw back in. it itghtened up and seemed ok until i shot it again. and the scre didn't come out but came up, moveing the site up. now i try and screw it back in and it wont stay down at all and seems to not catch the threads. i have no idea what to do. i haven't had time to go to the gunsmith and was wondering if maybe the screw is broke or what could be broke? the little pin the clicks on the site of the screwhead is stil there and clicks when screwing the screw in. any advise? what shoudl i do to fix?

January 14, 2006, 04:40 PM	#32
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The simplest thing is to send it to Colt for repair. This has the advantage that you can ask them to check the whole gun over and be sure the rest is working. You don't need and FFL to return a gun to the factory. That exception was put in the law so people wouldn't be discouraged from getting unsafe guns fixed. They can return it to you at the same address it came from. Call Colt customer service to ask particulars. 1-800-962-COLT. What was wrong is as what started this thread. Your screw detent wasn't working properly. The elevation screw should click firmly up and down. The click is the detent bar snapping into the little recesses in the screw head. If this doesn't happen the screw is free to turn. Read the whole thread for that detail. When you can't get the screw in, you may be pushing it down over top of the detent. Nick