Wife/husband/significant other objects to ccw

quiller333 · December 7, 2012, 09:52 AM

Newbie. Not a gun enthusiast like so many here.

Searched, didn't see this one addressed. Wonder if anybody else has had this problem and how they handled it.

After the Petit murders in CT, I determined to get my carry permit and buy a handgun for home defense. The wife of 40 years objected strenuously. She's not a leftist who wants to take guns away from private citizens (in fact, she's right of center, politically), but she believes that regular citizens who have guns in house present more of a threat to themselves and family than potential home invaders.

I know the counter arguments, the statistics, the rest of it. Couldn't budge her. Emotional thing. To anticipate the natural question: the relationship is solid--nothing else going on. She knows I'm not a threat; she considers the gun a threat.

At the end, I decided that our safety was paramount. Told her straight out I was overruling her. Took the training, got my permit, and bought a Ruger 357 Magnum. Some frosty weeks followed, but things calmed down.

Recently, I brought up the matter of a carry gun. The discussions on this one were even more intense. In diplomatic parlance, negotiations broke down. Irretrievably.

Same deal holds: a million to one chance of us being in an Aurora, CO or Virginia Tech situation, but I never want to find us hiding in a mall, defenseless, waiting to be killed by some nutjob.

I'm buying a Ruger LCR 38. Won't tell the little woman. Won't wear it all the time (I read that you should, but. . . .) I think if I'm careful, she won't know. (Must figure out the best holster option.)

Anyone else ever have this problem. Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing?

BarryLee · December 7, 2012, 10:01 AM

Never had the specific problem, but do know that being less than honest in relationships inevitably comes back to bite you. Have you considered taking her to a shooting range and maybe getting her a little more comfortable around guns?

There is a member here who specializes in self defense issues for women, so you might check her site out and see if it helps any.

http://www.corneredcat.com/

Good Luck...

Stressfire · December 7, 2012, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Anything I'm missing?

IMHO, a lot. Keeping secrets is usually a grievous mistake for any relationship.

I'd recommend being honest, up to and including your reasoning for carrying.

What do you think she would be more upset about? You doing something she doesn't like over her objections, or you doing it anyways and trying to hide it? Trust me, the latter is likely to have a worse outcome.

My fiancee started the same way, grew up around guns but really didn't want anything to do with them. I got one, then another, then my CHL, then a few more, then I started reloading. I was totally up front about it all. She doesn't have to like them, she doesn't have to shoot them, she just has to accept that I do.

Ensure safety, get a lock box, keep the weapon(s) secure when not in use and do your best to make her more comfortable.

Sorry if I went a bit Dr. Phil, but really, honesty would be the best policy

Amsdorf · December 7, 2012, 10:04 AM

My wife appreciates that I carry discretely ... Says it just makes her feel safer.

spacecoast · December 7, 2012, 10:05 AM

Quote:

I think if I'm careful, she won't know.

Pretty doubtful if you two are close enough to last 40 years of marriage. I think she should respect your decision and should support you when you go to the range to practice, get a CC training class, etc.

Stressfire · December 7, 2012, 10:09 AM

Addition to previous post:

Mine always gave me a hard time about carrying. The eye rolls, the impatience, the inevitable "Do you really need to bring that?" All up to a couple of weeks ago when my lil .380 sitting in its holster with my hand calmly on its grip was the only thing keeping a very large up and coming thug from attempting to polish his shoes with my chin stubble.

Has never said a word since.

MTSCMike · December 7, 2012, 10:22 AM

I agree with others...don't try to keep it from her. Tell her you love her and value her feelings about this but you have made a decision to do what you think is best to protect her and yourself.

I also suggest you take more training than just the permit requirement. You owe it to her and to yourself to be as proficient and safe as possible. Perhaps when she sees you are serious about adopting this lifestyle she will come around. If the situation ever arises when she can see the positive benefit of being armed she will come to value it.

No matter what be honest. In a true defensive situation it is important for your partner to know what you are about to do and how to react.

jmortimer · December 7, 2012, 10:37 AM

Might help to take a rational approach and ask her to read "More Guns Less Crime" by John Lott. Hiding the fact that you purchased a .357 LCR and carry it in secret will likely come back and bite you on the arse.

barstoolguru · December 7, 2012, 10:49 AM

Hand her a pen and a piece of paper and ask her to write down all the places there is going to be trouble

You can't make her change so do what you think is right. It always helps to bring up and show her proof of home invasions and crimes to support your side of the argument. Some people live in a bubble and never experienced a crime that required self-defense to survive

hogdogs · December 7, 2012, 10:53 AM

If she is open to conversation, you might try to explain that guns properly maintained and stored are inert by themselves... The also remain safe to the ones they need to when in the hands of safe, sober and sane people with good intents...

If folks try to argue about people not behaving rationally in my home possibly getting my guns, I explain my discretion used in deciding who will be in my home and when...

If kids are mentioned, I tell them the same...

If any sort of predatory criminal is mentioned, I explain that is exactly why the guns are here... to keep the bad people from getting my guns...

And no amount of dishonesty with the SO on your part will help your position on this matter nor any future matters where honesty is expected... Just sayin'...

Brent

Gaerek · December 7, 2012, 11:04 AM

When she finds out about your new purchase (and make no mistake, she will), what then? Another frosty couple weeks? Worse maybe?

I don't know your exact situation, so it's really hard to comment. For me, my wife was the same way (politically conservative, pro 2A, but didn't like the idea of a dangerous weapon in her house). It took me a few years, but today she has her CCW permit, and always has her pistol in the car (since she can't have it at work). When we go out, I get the whole, "Are we protected?" question.

A member here, Pax has a website called Cornered Cat. It's mostly a website for women who might be interested in shooting, but it has some really useful information for men who might want to try to at least change their wife/girlfriend/significant other's mind about guns, and possibly even go shooting. Look around the site, and maybe you'll find something that will help you.

The worst thing you can do is lie about or hide your gun purchases. Especially if she's against it. Talk to her. She may object, and that's her right, but she should know. Relationships are built on mutual respect and trust. Hiding a gun purchase when she is against you owning guns shows that you don't respect or trust her. It will turn out worse for you in the end. A little pain now talking to her will work out better when she finds out not only did you buy another gun, but you did it behind her back. That's a bad thing.

Warrior1256 · December 7, 2012, 11:21 AM

Be honest and tell your wife that you have decided to CC. Your wife has every right to disagree and not participate in CC herself but she does not have a right to forbid you from doing so.

Gaerek · December 7, 2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Be honest and tell your wife that you have decided to CC. Your wife has every right to disagree and not participate in CC herself but she does not have a right to forbid you from doing so.

This is actually really good advice. You'll probably find, once she's used to the idea that you're carrying that she'll ask if you are carrying when you're in a bad place with her.

One of the worst things you can do is scare her into letting you carry. Although it's true woman are 10 times more likely to be raped when they don't have a gun, all you're going to do is get her to did deeper, and find even more justification not to like guns. If you can get her to the range to shoot, it's almost certain you'll change her mind. But don't push the issue, or labor it.

**4V50 Gary** · December 8, 2012, 04:19 PM

I think of the theatre shooting in Colorado and how everyone was defenseless. It's about being able to protect oneself and their loved ones.

Sparks1957 · December 8, 2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Be honest and tell your wife that you have decided to CC. Your wife has every right to disagree and not participate in CC herself but she does not have a right to forbid you from doing so

Sound advice above. When you are in the house, a small pistol safe is a good idea so that you have a secure place to store the gun when you're not carrying.

The last thing you want to do is lie to your wife. That will cause permanent damage to your relationship.

My wife was uncomfortable around guns at first, but now she always asks if I'm armed when we go out. When I say I am, she relaxes a bit.

She goes shooting with me now once in awhile, though not frequently. She took the NRA basic pistol course last year as well, her idea.

jhenry · December 8, 2012, 05:36 PM

I would not lie about it. I suggest that if you are determined to carry that you just tell your wife what you intend to do and then do it. Be prepared for the inevitable consequences, and ride them out. If the consequences will end up being more than you can bear, then don't do it.

Nathan · December 8, 2012, 05:43 PM

I have a similar issue. I CCW normally outside the house. I don't hide it from them or project it on them.

My family shoots some, but had 0 SD or HD interest. They do seem to accommodate this method...

Good luck.

seeker_two · December 8, 2012, 05:50 PM

Don't lie or hide it. Tell her that, as her husband, you are responsible for her safety and yours; and you will do whatever it takes to ensure that safety because you love her. If she doesn't accept that, do it anyway.....

....ball is in her court then....

pax · December 8, 2012, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Your wife has every right to disagree and not participate in CC herself but she does not have a right to forbid you from doing so.

This is the crux of the issue.

When you negotiate, keep in mind that you are not negotiating for her permission. You do not need her permission to protect your own life and the lives of people you care about. You may want her approval, or maybe just a silent end to hostilities. Those are good goals, because a simple ceasefire is really all you can negotiate for in good conscience. That's because making decisions about how you will protect your life falls within your personal boundaries, not hers -- just as how she chooses to protect herself falls within her personal boundaries, not yours.

Remember that concept. Help her understand and remember it too. In all your discussions, make it clear that you are looking for ways that will help her feel more comfortable with the choices you've already made. Your choice isn't up for debate, but you are willing to offer other concessions that might help her feel less threatened by your choice.

One concession you might offer: take a gun safety class. Better still, take it with her. Invite her to come with you so she can see for herself what you are learning.

Invite her to help make decisions about safety that will affect her, such as how you will store the gun when you are not using it. Let her know that she can help you make those decisions only if she is willing to learn the things she needs to know in order to make good choices. This would include (for example) being willing to read websites, magazine articles and product brochures about safely storing guns.

When you go to take your concealed carry class, invite her to come with you. Does she need to? Nope. Invite her anyway. Explain that if she attends the class, it might help her feel more comfortable that you know what the laws are and will stay within the law when you carry.

To the extent that it's true, tell her you value her input and really want her alongside you as you learn more about how to stay safe in a home that has firearms in it. Tell her you need her help to remember details. Challenge her to help you stay safe by reminding you if you break one of the safety rules (which she can't do if she doesn't learn the rules with you...)

Bottom line: don't give an inch on the "permission" front, but invite her to participate as much as possible in anything related to safety. Educate her as much as you can within that framework. Then quietly do what you do, without a lot of fuss and bother. When she sees that you are serious about your boundaries and equally serious about safety, she will have room to relax and let it go.

pax

scrubcedar · December 8, 2012, 06:40 PM

+1 what seeker two said. Humans are wired so that they feel certain things, and gender plays into that. You feel protective of your wife, you're SUPPOSED to feel this way. If you don't, and I'm going to be blunt here, you are a jerk, not worthy to BE her husband, and probably you don't love her. That's how GOOD men are wired. Tell her that this is part of what she has to put up with to have a husband that is a good man who loves and cares for her, and that if she wanted somebody who wouldn't do these things she should have married a jerk who wouldn't care or love her like you do. I had to make this argument to my wife myself, so I've been there.

Onward Allusion · December 8, 2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

quiller333
Wife/husband/significant other objects to ccw

Well, I would normally say get rid of 'em, but after 40 years, it's probably not going to happen!

Ok, seriously... Does she shoot? Has she handled firearms? So, after 40 years, I'm guessing you two are at least in your late 50's early 60's, right? Ask her if she thinks you can take on an 20 YO thug...one on one, hand to hand... How about one armed with a just a knife. Ask her if she can protect you of something bad were to happen.

What you shouldn't do is lie by omission and try to carry w/o her knowledge. After 40 years, it ain't happening, and you're fooling yourself if you think it will.

DaleA · December 8, 2012, 07:59 PM

Quiller333 said:

Quote:

Same deal holds: a million to one chance of us being in an Aurora, CO or Virginia Tech situation, but I never want to find us hiding in a mall, defenseless, waiting to be killed by some nutjob.

I'm in total agreement. I'm pretty sure that thought motivates a lot of us here.

There's lots of really good advice here and for my part I recommend you read post #19 by Pax again and see if you can't use that advice.

Also, Quiller333 are you still with us?

hikingman · December 8, 2012, 10:46 PM

How could anybody call this kind of setup-a threat with the pistol inside?

It may not be the most ideal access, but it's safe!

Mr. James · December 8, 2012, 11:45 PM

Well, the only thing I can add to pax's learned post has already been said above. Do you really want to ruin a 40-year marriage by lying to her? Bad move. Monumentally bad move. And if you've been in the habit for the past 40 years (doubtful), knock it off!!

Follow the pax playbook and, God willing, you'll both make clear of this.

quiller333 · December 9, 2012, 08:34 AM

Still here. Just waiting for the feedback to come in.

Glad I posted the question. I talked to a good friend about the matter and raised it here because I needed perspective. I am very impressed with the responses.

Everyone basically said, you shouldn't lie or keep it a secret. Never intended to lie; did intend to try to keep it a secret. But the arguments against that course were sound, so no secret purchase.

So, an honest heart-to-heart yesterday. Couldn't budge her. She believes carrying puts us at risk: you're mugged, frisked, mugger finds the gun, shoots you; you're carjacked, you try to get to the gun, the carjacker gets it first, kills you. Etc., etc.

I said there are numerous instances of people--men, women--who saved themselves and loved ones because they carried, and I can't recall hearing of a single instance of someone who carries having the gun turned on them. I showed her three stories of women who saved themselves by carrying. She did not find those stories particularly convincing.

I appreciate every single response, especially warrior1256, scrubcedar and seeker_two. (Warrior1256, she has not "forbidden" the purchase. She says that if I carried she would be very uncomfortable--heavy emphasis on "very." In this way, she's smart. After being married so long, she knows that the surest way to get me to do something is to forbid it.)

Most especially, I want to thank pax for her brilliant response. In fact, after reading what she wrote, I thought I'd show my wife pax's statement, then decided that I'd just show her the whole thread. (Pax's corneredcat.com site is a wonderful resource.)

Finally, I just bought a gun safe, as some of you recommended; the suggestions concerning additional classes make perfect sense, as well.

That's where it stands.

December 7, 2012, 10:01 AM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	Never had the specific problem, but do know that being less than honest in relationships inevitably comes back to bite you. Have you considered taking her to a shooting range and maybe getting her a little more comfortable around guns? There is a member here who specializes in self defense issues for women, so you might check her site out and see if it helps any. http://www.corneredcat.com/ Good Luck... __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

December 7, 2012, 10:09 AM	#6
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Addition to previous post: Mine always gave me a hard time about carrying. The eye rolls, the impatience, the inevitable "Do you really need to bring that?" All up to a couple of weeks ago when my lil .380 sitting in its holster with my hand calmly on its grip was the only thing keeping a very large up and coming thug from attempting to polish his shoes with my chin stubble. Has never said a word since. __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

December 7, 2012, 10:22 AM	#7
MTSCMike Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2011 Location: Middle TN Posts: 164	I agree with others...don't try to keep it from her. Tell her you love her and value her feelings about this but you have made a decision to do what you think is best to protect her and yourself. I also suggest you take more training than just the permit requirement. You owe it to her and to yourself to be as proficient and safe as possible. Perhaps when she sees you are serious about adopting this lifestyle she will come around. If the situation ever arises when she can see the positive benefit of being armed she will come to value it. No matter what be honest. In a true defensive situation it is important for your partner to know what you are about to do and how to react. __________________ IDPA Member A00640 Founding Charter Member - Middle Tennessee Shooter's Club

December 7, 2012, 10:49 AM	#9
barstoolguru Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2011 Posts: 180	Hand her a pen and a piece of paper and ask her to write down all the places there is going to be trouble You can't make her change so do what you think is right. It always helps to bring up and show her proof of home invasions and crimes to support your side of the argument. Some people live in a bubble and never experienced a crime that required self-defense to survive Last edited by barstoolguru; December 7, 2012 at 02:27 PM.

December 8, 2012, 04:19 PM	#14
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	I think of the theatre shooting in Colorado and how everyone was defenseless. It's about being able to protect oneself and their loved ones. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

December 7, 2012, 09:52 AM	#1
quiller333 Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2012 Posts: 5	Wife/husband/significant other objects to ccw Newbie. Not a gun enthusiast like so many here. Searched, didn't see this one addressed. Wonder if anybody else has had this problem and how they handled it. After the Petit murders in CT, I determined to get my carry permit and buy a handgun for home defense. The wife of 40 years objected strenuously. She's not a leftist who wants to take guns away from private citizens (in fact, she's right of center, politically), but she believes that regular citizens who have guns in house present more of a threat to themselves and family than potential home invaders. I know the counter arguments, the statistics, the rest of it. Couldn't budge her. Emotional thing. To anticipate the natural question: the relationship is solid--nothing else going on. She knows I'm not a threat; she considers the gun a threat. At the end, I decided that our safety was paramount. Told her straight out I was overruling her. Took the training, got my permit, and bought a Ruger 357 Magnum. Some frosty weeks followed, but things calmed down. Recently, I brought up the matter of a carry gun. The discussions on this one were even more intense. In diplomatic parlance, negotiations broke down. Irretrievably. Same deal holds: a million to one chance of us being in an Aurora, CO or Virginia Tech situation, but I never want to find us hiding in a mall, defenseless, waiting to be killed by some nutjob. I'm buying a Ruger LCR 38. Won't tell the little woman. Won't wear it all the time (I read that you should, but. . . .) I think if I'm careful, she won't know. (Must figure out the best holster option.) Anyone else ever have this problem. Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing? Last edited by quiller333; December 10, 2012 at 01:04 AM. Reason: Edit for clarity.

December 7, 2012, 10:04 AM	#4
Amsdorf Junior member Join Date: July 24, 2011 Location: Saint Louis, Missouri Posts: 849	My wife appreciates that I carry discretely ... Says it just makes her feel safer.

December 7, 2012, 10:37 AM	#8
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	Might help to take a rational approach and ask her to read "More Guns Less Crime" by John Lott. Hiding the fact that you purchased a .357 LCR and carry it in secret will likely come back and bite you on the arse.

December 7, 2012, 10:53 AM	#10
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	If she is open to conversation, you might try to explain that guns properly maintained and stored are inert by themselves... The also remain safe to the ones they need to when in the hands of safe, sober and sane people with good intents... If folks try to argue about people not behaving rationally in my home possibly getting my guns, I explain my discretion used in deciding who will be in my home and when... If kids are mentioned, I tell them the same... If any sort of predatory criminal is mentioned, I explain that is exactly why the guns are here... to keep the bad people from getting my guns... And no amount of dishonesty with the SO on your part will help your position on this matter nor any future matters where honesty is expected... Just sayin'... Brent

December 7, 2012, 11:04 AM	#11
Gaerek Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 939	When she finds out about your new purchase (and make no mistake, she will), what then? Another frosty couple weeks? Worse maybe? I don't know your exact situation, so it's really hard to comment. For me, my wife was the same way (politically conservative, pro 2A, but didn't like the idea of a dangerous weapon in her house). It took me a few years, but today she has her CCW permit, and always has her pistol in the car (since she can't have it at work). When we go out, I get the whole, "Are we protected?" question. A member here, Pax has a website called Cornered Cat. It's mostly a website for women who might be interested in shooting, but it has some really useful information for men who might want to try to at least change their wife/girlfriend/significant other's mind about guns, and possibly even go shooting. Look around the site, and maybe you'll find something that will help you. The worst thing you can do is lie about or hide your gun purchases. Especially if she's against it. Talk to her. She may object, and that's her right, but she should know. Relationships are built on mutual respect and trust. Hiding a gun purchase when she is against you owning guns shows that you don't respect or trust her. It will turn out worse for you in the end. A little pain now talking to her will work out better when she finds out not only did you buy another gun, but you did it behind her back. That's a bad thing.

December 7, 2012, 11:21 AM	#12
Warrior1256 Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2012 Location: Louisville, Ky. Posts: 156	Be honest and tell your wife that you have decided to CC. Your wife has every right to disagree and not participate in CC herself but she does not have a right to forbid you from doing so.

December 8, 2012, 05:36 PM	#16
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	I would not lie about it. I suggest that if you are determined to carry that you just tell your wife what you intend to do and then do it. Be prepared for the inevitable consequences, and ride them out. If the consequences will end up being more than you can bear, then don't do it. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

December 8, 2012, 05:43 PM	#17
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	I have a similar issue. I CCW normally outside the house. I don't hide it from them or project it on them. My family shoots some, but had 0 SD or HD interest. They do seem to accommodate this method... Good luck.

December 8, 2012, 05:50 PM	#18
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	Don't lie or hide it. Tell her that, as her husband, you are responsible for her safety and yours; and you will do whatever it takes to ensure that safety because you love her. If she doesn't accept that, do it anyway..... ....ball is in her court then.... __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

December 8, 2012, 06:40 PM	#20
scrubcedar Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2012 Location: Southwestern Colorado Posts: 507	+1 what seeker two said. Humans are wired so that they feel certain things, and gender plays into that. You feel protective of your wife, you're SUPPOSED to feel this way. If you don't, and I'm going to be blunt here, you are a jerk, not worthy to BE her husband, and probably you don't love her. That's how GOOD men are wired. Tell her that this is part of what she has to put up with to have a husband that is a good man who loves and cares for her, and that if she wanted somebody who wouldn't do these things she should have married a jerk who wouldn't care or love her like you do. I had to make this argument to my wife myself, so I've been there. __________________ Gaily bedight, A gallant knight In sunshine and in shadow, Had journeyed long, Singing a song, In search of El Dorado

December 8, 2012, 11:45 PM	#24
Mr. James Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: The Old Dominion Posts: 1,521	Well, the only thing I can add to pax's learned post has already been said above. Do you really want to ruin a 40-year marriage by lying to her? Bad move. Monumentally bad move. And if you've been in the habit for the past 40 years (doubtful), knock it off!! Follow the pax playbook and, God willing, you'll both make clear of this. __________________ "...A humble and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Ps. li "When law and morality contradict each other, the citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law." —Frederic Bastiat

December 9, 2012, 08:34 AM	#25
quiller333 Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2012 Posts: 5	Still here. Just waiting for the feedback to come in. Glad I posted the question. I talked to a good friend about the matter and raised it here because I needed perspective. I am very impressed with the responses. Everyone basically said, you shouldn't lie or keep it a secret. Never intended to lie; did intend to try to keep it a secret. But the arguments against that course were sound, so no secret purchase. So, an honest heart-to-heart yesterday. Couldn't budge her. She believes carrying puts us at risk: you're mugged, frisked, mugger finds the gun, shoots you; you're carjacked, you try to get to the gun, the carjacker gets it first, kills you. Etc., etc. I said there are numerous instances of people--men, women--who saved themselves and loved ones because they carried, and I can't recall hearing of a single instance of someone who carries having the gun turned on them. I showed her three stories of women who saved themselves by carrying. She did not find those stories particularly convincing. I appreciate every single response, especially warrior1256, scrubcedar and seeker_two. (Warrior1256, she has not "forbidden" the purchase. She says that if I carried she would be very uncomfortable--heavy emphasis on "very." In this way, she's smart. After being married so long, she knows that the surest way to get me to do something is to forbid it.) Most especially, I want to thank pax for her brilliant response. In fact, after reading what she wrote, I thought I'd show my wife pax's statement, then decided that I'd just show her the whole thread. (Pax's corneredcat.com site is a wonderful resource.) Finally, I just bought a gun safe, as some of you recommended; the suggestions concerning additional classes make perfect sense, as well. That's where it stands.