FBI Report and Officer / Offender Shootings

[trooper3385]

I received an email on an FBI report that was conducted on Officer / Offender related shootings. These were shootings that either the officer or offender was killed or wounded. Interviews were conducted with either the offender or officer that survived or both. I'm not going to put the whole email in here due to some information that doesn't need to be released, just some of some useful information that is interesting and surprising in some cases.

- All but 1 of the firearms were obtained illegally by thefts or street transactions

- None were obtained from Gunshows or Gunstores

- Only 1 weapons was hand picked to do the most damage. Most just took what they could get their hands on.

- Most weapons were handguns.

- 40% had formal firearms training from the Military

- 40% had been in prior shootings before the Officer involved shooting

- 20% had been in 5 or more prior shootings.

- Almost all carried all the time, even at work

- None used holsters.

- Front of the Waistband was the most common place the weapon was kept with the small of the back and groin second.

- Nearly 70% were succesful in striking their target in the shooting incident.

- Averaged 23 practice sessions a year. Most at trash dumps, rural areas, backyards, & Street corners.

All these stats were on the offenders, not the officers. The thing that was most surprising to me was the amount of time they spent practicing and the percent that was successful in striking there targets. Like I said, this is only some of the information in the report. One thing that also stood out was that the offenders stated that when they were carrying a weapon, they continually put their hand on the weapon to make sure it was still concealed and had not shifted out of place, so thats one thing to key on when scanning groups of people. Like I said, these were all officer related shooting, but can still be useful for civilians.

[rjrivero]

This is interesting information. Thank you for posting it.

[trooper3385]

BTW, the 70% stat was not 70% of their shots struck the target. It was 70% of the shooting incidents, they struck the target. Still surprising to me.

[BikerRN]

Thank you for that post.

It confirms what I have learned as well, from other sources and personal expirience.

Biker

[Dannyl]

I am surprised by the high percentage of former military turned into criminals.
Brgds,
Danny

[mega twin]

I believe you have the same percentage of bad apples in any situation,be it military or private concerns.
I also saw on one of the gang documentaries, where some gangs are sending members to the armed forces to get advanced training for there own means.
The street wise kids of yesterday are now becoming urban commandos.
A whole new ball game for LEO's.

[Rattlehead]

Just because 40% of the criminals have mil background doesn't mean 40% vets are criminals.

[TailGator]

How many shootings or shooters were examined in this study? Great stuff!

[Dannyl]

Hi All,
Rattlehead, and everybody
I did not mean any disrespect to the military (active or veterans).
Quite the contrary, as an ex soldier I sypmphatize with all of those who serve in the armed forces and have a lot of respect for them.

I was only saying that I was surprised that a large number of criminals spent time in the military. (perhaps I should have phrased it as such)

If my post offended anyone, please forgive my choice of words.

Brgds,

Danny

[Brian Pfleuger]

FYI, the original source:

Anthony J. Pinizzotto, Edward F. Davis, and Charles E. Miller III, U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation’s Law Enforcement Officers (Washington, DC, 2006), available from the UCR Program Office, FBI Complex, 1000 Custer Hollow Road, Clarksburg, WV 26306-0150 or by calling 888-827-6427.


Something close to the full text:

http://www.forcesciencenews.com/home...html?serial=62


That data comes from "...one chapter in a 180-page research summary called "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers." The study is the third in a series of long investigations into fatal and nonfatal attacks on POs by the FBI team of Dr. Anthony Pinizzotto, clinical forensic psychologist, and Ed Davis, criminal investigative instructor, both with the Bureau's Behavioral Science Unit, and Charles Miller III, coordinator of the LEOs Killed and Assaulted program."

[jglsprings]

Trooper,

Thanks for the post.

Unfortunately if we can't site the source the numbers fall into hearsay and internet rumor. I understand that you cannot quote the source and fully appreciate your position.

I wist that the FBI would publish this stuff to the public. I think that the stats are very interesting and confirm other trends that I have seen.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by Dannyl

I was only saying that I was surprised that a large number of criminals spent time in the military. (perhaps I should have phrased it as such)

It's not all that surprising, if you think about it in economic terms. Although many people join the military because they want to serve their country, for many others, with limited education and few other employment options, it's sort of a job of last resort; and so is crime. Now factor in the number of veterans who come home suffering from PTSD or other disabilities which make them still less employable...

No -- it's really sad, but it isn't surprising.

[jglsprings]

Hey Pete (or is that Peet or Pizza?)

Thanks for the source. You da man!

[Rattlehead]

Hi All,
Rattlehead, and everybody
I did not mean any disrespect to the military (active or veterans).
Quite the contrary, as an ex soldier I sypmphatize with all of those who serve in the armed forces and have a lot of respect for them.

I was only saying that I was surprised that a large number of criminals spent time in the military. (perhaps I should have phrased it as such)

If my post offended anyone, please forgive my choice of words.

Brgds,

Danny

Danny - I really didn't take offense to your post. I just thought that the way you phrased your point made it sound like vets were turning to crime in numbers, and my post was simply attempting to clarify the statistic. To be fair, that statistic struck me as being high the first time I read through the original post.

Something that occurred to me during the day - one possible reason is that military training might give an otherwise timid criminal confidence (perhaps false, perhaps not) to try to attack an officer he otherwise would not. That might be a disturbing statistic as an LEO, if you find yourself in a firefight, to realize that you have a nearly 50% probability that your foe has had formal training... (although lack fo use of holsters, lack of consideration in firearm selection may indicate that they're not paying that much attention to the training they recieved)

[Old Grump]

Good post and thanks for the link peetzakilla, I am now subscribed. I have to admit to some surprise that this came out of the University of Minnesota system, they like the University of Wisconsin aren't exactly unbiased when it comes to the Hoi Polloi being armed or having access to weapons.

[MauiDoc]

'On cold or rainy days, a subject's jacket hood may not be covering his head because it is being used to conceal a handgun.'

How do you conceal a handgun with a hood--tape it to the back of your neck?

[Nnobby45]

According to one of the crime show documentaries I saw, some criminal gang organizations require their members to do a tour in the military. Sorry, can't remember which one. NATGO or MSNBC, I believe

Tagging, while not frequent, has been observed in Iraq.

[jhenry]

One of, if not THE primary reason for the high hit probability by bad guys in shootings is because they are acting and not reacting. When the cop shoots it is almost always in reaction to a threat which has presented itself in a very fast and violent manner. The bad guy shoots because he has decided to before hand. In other words he has the drop, he is up close, and the target is helpless or at least not ready at that instant. It may be a target of opportunity, and the decision to shoot may be fairly spontaneous, but it is still a surprise to the victim, or the victim has been rendered helpless to some degree. Action beat reaction every time.

[trooper3385]

Jhenry is completely correct. Action vs reaction plays a really big part in it. I believe the stats said that the offender hit what they were shooting at in 70% of the incidents and the officers were at 40%. but the disclaimer there is that in almost everyone, the officer had already been shot at and was returning fire. Bullets whizzing by your head will definetly effect your hit miss ratio.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I believe that the hit ratio is also effected by the fundamental difference in morality between officer and offender. The officer doesn't want to kill anyone, ever. While the offender will kill anyone, anytime. Studies have shown that even soldiers in combat often times do not return fire, even when their lives depend on it. I think that even when an officer (or soldier) does return fire their hit rate can often be effected by their fundamental, subconcious desire to not kill.

[ChCx91]

We have to understand that not all criminals wear pants that hang off their knees, hold their handguns sideways, tilt their caps to the side and have bang flags hanging out of their pockets; there are criminals that dress and look like outstanding citizens that are far worse than the images we have in our heads. In my line of work, we have stung and arrested many people that are clean cut, tucked in button downs and have 5+ years of successful college educations for crimes such as armed robbery, burglary, growing/manufacturing felony narcotics, aggravated assault and aggravated battery. Situational awareness and training are very important to your self defense and tactical mindset. In today's world, you must be able to differentiate, and at the same time weed out, what kind of demographic profiles and stereotypes are the ones you should really be cautious of. Always run every scenario through your head play by play. Whenever you meet someone new, always be polite, courteous and nice...but be prepared to kill them at a millisecond's notice.

[TEDDY]

when one realizes the number of people who have served in the military,it should not be unrealistic,and the number of criminals.if the courts and the law makers stiffened the penalties for violent crime,the numbers might go down as the number of criminals would be lowered.

[TRX]

> That might be a disturbing statistic as an LEO, if you find
> yourself in a firefight, to realize that you have a nearly
> 50% probability that your foe has had formal training..

Formal training in what? Learning how to clean an M-16 and fire it on a range doesn't teach you how to use a pistol to hold up a liquor store, or how to do a drive-by shooting with maximum bling.


> .if the courts and the law makers stiffened the penalties
> for violent crime,the numbers might go down as the
> number of criminals would be lowered.

If they were capable of weighing the consequences of their actions rationally, they probably wouldn't be committing violent criminal acts to start with.

[Erik]

"Formal training in what?"

Oh, I don't know. Maybe weapons, tactics, a inkling of how to effectively fight and kill, and understanding of mind set coupled with decisive action... oh, and the opportunity to bring it all together and practice it? Or something along those lines.

---

The issue of bad guys entering military service for the training and experience with the intent of returning to civilian life as a bad guy is a documented, real, and unfortunately reoccurring issue that the military and law enforcement is grappling with.

[Erik]

Re the FBI study: it demonstrates the myth that the bad guys don't know what they are doing is just that, a myth; a popular myth often cited on this and similar forums. Underestimate them at your expense.