A shot in the dark - Man shoots fiancee

Glenn E. Meyer · October 12, 2009, 10:42 AM

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5378015.shtml

Periodically, we have discussions of what to do when you detect an intruder. Some usually opines that identification or challenging is not for them. If the BG is in their house, they will open fire, etc.

This view was presented in:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378465

which we closed.

But I post this as another classic case of using some discretion.

Interesting, there was a case on CourtTV where a wife did the same thing, shot hubby coming out of the can and claimed it was an intruder and she didn't have the vision to discern him from a BG. A psychologist (visual expert) I know and who wrote a chapter for a book I did, performed some very high end Fouier CSF tests on her. Oops - she did have the ability to see him. Didn't go well for her.

Point is ID'ing the target might be a good thing.

Glenn

Willie Lowman · October 12, 2009, 10:51 AM

And that's why my HD gun has a light attached with a second light right next to it.

Dannyl · October 12, 2009, 11:50 AM

I keep my EDC gun next to me, and a very powerful light next to it.
No matter what, one should never fire at an unidentified target.

Brgds,
Danny

ZeSpectre · October 12, 2009, 12:04 PM

Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.

repeat Ad Nausium.

csmsss · October 12, 2009, 12:57 PM

I'm quite skeptical as to the circumstances of this shooting and the story of the shooter. In the context most favorable to the shooter, it's still an egregiously negligent shooting. My suspicion, however, is that this was no accident, and that the homeowner concocted the story of an intruder.

Glenn E. Meyer · October 12, 2009, 01:05 PM

One never knows - that's why the investigation. In the other case that I cited, the claim was judged to be bogus.

Other mistaken shootings have been tragically real.

Seemingly loving couples - one never knows. Darkness resides in the hearts of many as does sudden violent impulses.

The take away point for us - assuming we are not homocidal - is that some caution is needed.

gdeal · October 12, 2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

And that's why my HD gun has a light attached with a second light right next to it.

Quote:

No matter what, one should never fire at an unidentified target.

Quote:

Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.

I agree with the three posts above.

Mello2u · October 12, 2009, 01:35 PM

This is a concrete "real world" illustration of what can happen if you choose to shoot before you identify your target.

teeroux · October 12, 2009, 02:38 PM

I never really thought getting shot coming out of the can as a possibility happening to me and my wife.

Mabe there is something wrong with us and we are both weird? We both go to the rest room with the light on.

koolminx · October 12, 2009, 03:08 PM

Like all of my own personal rules. Never never never ever ever ever shoot at something if you cannot positively identify it whether it be paper, man or beast.

SD at home, turn on a dang light or leave the gun in the holster...

markj · October 12, 2009, 04:22 PM

This is why I would not shoot thru a door. Identify first.

mustang_steve · October 12, 2009, 09:34 PM

As bad as I feel for this guy and his wife, he still needs a good hard kick in the nuts for being thoughtless enough to shoot at dark silhouettes.

ALWAYS ID....verify targets before performing irreversible actions.

orionengnr · October 12, 2009, 09:50 PM

Just one of the many advantages of owning multiple dogs. If there is someone in the house who doesn't belong there, both he (BG) and I know it right away. Sure cuts down on the possibilities of "mistaken identity"...

Quote:

Mabe there is something wrong with us and we are both weird? We both go to the rest room with the light on.

After bedtime, if I get up to use the rest room, I don't turn on lights. My night vision is pretty good and I don't care for the retina burn.
Also, if I turn on the light, I will be 110% awake, and probably will not get back to sleep again that night....

JonathanZ · October 12, 2009, 09:52 PM

It seems he may have been on edge because of all the other recent break ins to his neighbors. Very sad story, and a good lesson for each of us.

Christchild · October 12, 2009, 09:55 PM

This is one of those things that, in my opinion, could/should prompt a little "Home Training" for all of us that own Arms.

Like Fire Drills...Only concerning guns and What-To-Do in possible situations.

Make sure everyone knows it, and go over it periodically.

12GaugeLosAngeles · October 12, 2009, 11:11 PM

If you can't fly an airlplane, don't do it.. if you can't tell it's your own wife 5 yards away and you can't asses a basic situation... don't own guns, and don't walk packing down a dark corridor with out some sort of light, or extremely good vision, or you know 100% the target is identified as the intruder. i think this case might have more to do than mistaken identity. Red rum?

Christchild · October 12, 2009, 11:25 PM

I try to not Pass Judgement, because One doesn't always know the Truth.

Some things are Cut and Dry, others You just never know.

I won't buy the "He definitely knew it was his Fiance', and he murdered her", thing. Although that is USUALLY the case, Usually doesn't mean Always.

Me personally, I've been on the reciving end of Lies and Falsifications, and I had to pay quite a price for someone elses lying.

So I won't Pass Judgement on this one. I just think events like the One In Question, should alert Us GunOwners to better prepare ourselves, as I stated above. BUT, like many other posters said, know your "target" and what's beyond it. Self/Home Defense and Shooting/Hunting alike.

besafe2 · October 12, 2009, 11:55 PM

IDENTIFY #1.....I know some if not most may have a better light, but my Surefire 6P is right next to my gun.

NRAhab · October 13, 2009, 02:12 PM

For "tactics and training" purposes, a decent takeaway from this is also to have a plan for a home invasion, a fire, or whatever other emergency you could encounter. If the alarm goes off at 3am, both my wife and I have specific places that we're supposed to go, and a big part of that is because knowing your role can go a long way towards cutting down the odds of a mistaken identity shooting.

Also, have a home security system. They're cheap to buy and maintain, and (for people without kids) it eliminates the need for me to Rambo-Up and go investigate every "weird noise" I hear. With a good alarm system rigged up to the entry points, it allows you to barricade yourself and spouse in a specific room of the house, which means that the chances of a mistaken identity shooting are again lowered.

And finally, divorce yourself from the "I'm going to go check it out" notion. While in certain situations it may be appropriate to clear your house or leave a secure area, for the most part this is an invitation to get yourself shot or worse. I can't think of a single thing I own that's worth killing a human being over, or that's worth getting myself killed. So if the alarm goes off at 0300, whomever has broken in is welcome to steal everything they can carry out of the house - as long as they don't try to enter the place where my wife and I are holed up.

kiov · October 16, 2009, 10:04 AM

One thing that strikes me about this story is the series of events.

1. Man hears noise.
2. Man gets out of bed without checking to see if only other person supposed to be in the house is still in bed.
3. Man shoots person in hallway.

Whenever I hear a bump in the night I first assume it is one of my kids or someone else who lives in the house, just up late, maybe getting a snack or hitting the bathroom.

I just cant understand how this guy didn't just glance beside him to see if it was his girlfriend who was up.

IMO, its either gross negligence, or murder from the evidence so far.

+1 on having a light...I also have a powerful light on the bedstand, near the .45.

sakeneko · October 16, 2009, 07:45 PM

+1 on what Gdeal said.

tpareloader · October 17, 2009, 07:22 PM

+1 on the 4th cardinal rule of gun safety , know your target, backstop, and what lies beyond it

Shawn Dodson · October 20, 2009, 12:49 PM

My letter to the editor of FloridaToday, published Saturday, 17 Oct (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...=2009910170310)

Sadly the recent shooting in Winter Springs, in which a groom-to-be fatally shot his fiancée the day before their wedding, is more than an accident; it's negligent homicide.

It could've been avoided with a simple verbal challenge, "Who's there!" Instead the shooter stalked and ambushed his victim, with the apparent intent to dole out a deadly punishment.

Sneaking around in darkness of night, with gun in hand, playing burglar hunt is recipe for disaster, especially if a home defender hasn't accounted for all members of the household.

One basic gun safety rule is be sure of your target and what's beyond. Positive target identification is essential to avoiding tragedies such as this.

In my home, family members are instructed to respond when another hollers, "Who's there!" Verbal challenge starts the process of assessing unusual activity or noise.

If the challenge goes unanswered, it's repeated, "Who's there! What are you doing?" while moving away from the area of commotion to a position of safety or advantage.

If necessary, the challenge can escalate to "I have a gun! I've called police! Get out now!"

Simple, effective, no misunderstandings -- it conveys the deadly seriousness of the situation and allows a home defender to assess the threat.

Tell the bad guy to leave. Shoot to stop for deadly danger only.

Shawn Dodson
Titusville

goose13 · October 21, 2009, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.
Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it.

repeat Ad Nausium.

+1 to the 4th cardinal rule.

actually +12391810847917 because obviously it can't be stated enough. Some people just aren't ready for the big resposibility that comes with owning and/or carrying a gun

October 12, 2009, 10:51 AM	#2
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	And that's why my HD gun has a light attached with a second light right next to it. __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens

October 12, 2009, 01:05 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	One never knows - that's why the investigation. In the other case that I cited, the claim was judged to be bogus. Other mistaken shootings have been tragically real. Seemingly loving couples - one never knows. Darkness resides in the hearts of many as does sudden violent impulses. The take away point for us - assuming we are not homocidal - is that some caution is needed. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 12, 2009, 01:35 PM	#8
Mello2u Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,424	This is a concrete "real world" illustration of what can happen if you choose to shoot before you identify your target. __________________ NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat

October 12, 2009, 11:55 PM	#18
besafe2 Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2008 Location: NC Posts: 117	IDENTIFY #1.....I know some if not most may have a better light, but my Surefire 6P is right next to my gun. __________________ "Blessed be the Lord my strength,which teacheth my hands to war and my fingers to fight". Psalm 144:1 KJV Be safe: Paul

October 13, 2009, 02:12 PM	#19
NRAhab Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2005 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 683	For "tactics and training" purposes, a decent takeaway from this is also to have a plan for a home invasion, a fire, or whatever other emergency you could encounter. If the alarm goes off at 3am, both my wife and I have specific places that we're supposed to go, and a big part of that is because knowing your role can go a long way towards cutting down the odds of a mistaken identity shooting. Also, have a home security system. They're cheap to buy and maintain, and (for people without kids) it eliminates the need for me to Rambo-Up and go investigate every "weird noise" I hear. With a good alarm system rigged up to the entry points, it allows you to barricade yourself and spouse in a specific room of the house, which means that the chances of a mistaken identity shooting are again lowered. And finally, divorce yourself from the "I'm going to go check it out" notion. While in certain situations it may be appropriate to clear your house or leave a secure area, for the most part this is an invitation to get yourself shot or worse. I can't think of a single thing I own that's worth killing a human being over, or that's worth getting myself killed. So if the alarm goes off at 0300, whomever has broken in is welcome to steal everything they can carry out of the house - as long as they don't try to enter the place where my wife and I are holed up. __________________ Join the community at GunUp!

October 12, 2009, 10:42 AM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	A shot in the dark - Man shoots fiancee http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5378015.shtml Periodically, we have discussions of what to do when you detect an intruder. Some usually opines that identification or challenging is not for them. If the BG is in their house, they will open fire, etc. This view was presented in: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378465 which we closed. But I post this as another classic case of using some discretion. Interesting, there was a case on CourtTV where a wife did the same thing, shot hubby coming out of the can and claimed it was an intruder and she didn't have the vision to discern him from a BG. A psychologist (visual expert) I know and who wrote a chapter for a book I did, performed some very high end Fouier CSF tests on her. Oops - she did have the ability to see him. Didn't go well for her. Point is ID'ing the target might be a good thing. Glenn __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 12, 2009, 11:50 AM	#3
Dannyl Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Cape Town - South Africa Posts: 627	I keep my EDC gun next to me, and a very powerful light next to it. No matter what, one should never fire at an unidentified target. Brgds, Danny

October 12, 2009, 12:04 PM	#4
ZeSpectre Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Shenandoah Valley Posts: 3,276	Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it. Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it. Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it. Rule #4 - Know your target and what is beyond it. repeat Ad Nausium. __________________ "The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"

October 12, 2009, 12:57 PM	#5
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	I'm quite skeptical as to the circumstances of this shooting and the story of the shooter. In the context most favorable to the shooter, it's still an egregiously negligent shooting. My suspicion, however, is that this was no accident, and that the homeowner concocted the story of an intruder.

October 12, 2009, 02:38 PM	#9
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	I never really thought getting shot coming out of the can as a possibility happening to me and my wife. Mabe there is something wrong with us and we are both weird? We both go to the rest room with the light on.

October 12, 2009, 03:08 PM	#10
koolminx Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 520	Like all of my own personal rules. Never never never ever ever ever shoot at something if you cannot positively identify it whether it be paper, man or beast. SD at home, turn on a dang light or leave the gun in the holster...

October 12, 2009, 04:22 PM	#11
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	This is why I would not shoot thru a door. Identify first.

October 12, 2009, 09:34 PM	#12
mustang_steve Member Join Date: September 6, 2009 Posts: 31	As bad as I feel for this guy and his wife, he still needs a good hard kick in the nuts for being thoughtless enough to shoot at dark silhouettes. ALWAYS ID....verify targets before performing irreversible actions.

October 12, 2009, 09:52 PM	#14
JonathanZ Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2009 Posts: 228	It seems he may have been on edge because of all the other recent break ins to his neighbors. Very sad story, and a good lesson for each of us.

October 12, 2009, 09:55 PM	#15
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	This is one of those things that, in my opinion, could/should prompt a little "Home Training" for all of us that own Arms. Like Fire Drills...Only concerning guns and What-To-Do in possible situations. Make sure everyone knows it, and go over it periodically.

October 12, 2009, 11:11 PM	#16
12GaugeLosAngeles Junior member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 81	If you can't fly an airlplane, don't do it.. if you can't tell it's your own wife 5 yards away and you can't asses a basic situation... don't own guns, and don't walk packing down a dark corridor with out some sort of light, or extremely good vision, or you know 100% the target is identified as the intruder. i think this case might have more to do than mistaken identity. Red rum?

October 12, 2009, 11:25 PM	#17
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	I try to not Pass Judgement, because One doesn't always know the Truth. Some things are Cut and Dry, others You just never know. I won't buy the "He definitely knew it was his Fiance', and he murdered her", thing. Although that is USUALLY the case, Usually doesn't mean Always. Me personally, I've been on the reciving end of Lies and Falsifications, and I had to pay quite a price for someone elses lying. So I won't Pass Judgement on this one. I just think events like the One In Question, should alert Us GunOwners to better prepare ourselves, as I stated above. BUT, like many other posters said, know your "target" and what's beyond it. Self/Home Defense and Shooting/Hunting alike.

October 16, 2009, 10:04 AM	#20
kiov Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2004 Posts: 283	One thing that strikes me about this story is the series of events. 1. Man hears noise. 2. Man gets out of bed without checking to see if only other person supposed to be in the house is still in bed. 3. Man shoots person in hallway. Whenever I hear a bump in the night I first assume it is one of my kids or someone else who lives in the house, just up late, maybe getting a snack or hitting the bathroom. I just cant understand how this guy didn't just glance beside him to see if it was his girlfriend who was up. IMO, its either gross negligence, or murder from the evidence so far. +1 on having a light...I also have a powerful light on the bedstand, near the .45.

October 16, 2009, 07:45 PM	#21
sakeneko Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2009 Location: Nevada Posts: 644	+1 on what Gdeal said.

October 17, 2009, 07:22 PM	#22
tpareloader Member Join Date: April 23, 2009 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 76	+1 on the 4th cardinal rule of gun safety , know your target, backstop, and what lies beyond it __________________ Never compromise, never surrender.

October 20, 2009, 12:49 PM	#23
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	My letter to the editor of FloridaToday, published Saturday, 17 Oct (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbc...=2009910170310) Sadly the recent shooting in Winter Springs, in which a groom-to-be fatally shot his fiancée the day before their wedding, is more than an accident; it's negligent homicide. It could've been avoided with a simple verbal challenge, "Who's there!" Instead the shooter stalked and ambushed his victim, with the apparent intent to dole out a deadly punishment. Sneaking around in darkness of night, with gun in hand, playing burglar hunt is recipe for disaster, especially if a home defender hasn't accounted for all members of the household. One basic gun safety rule is be sure of your target and what's beyond. Positive target identification is essential to avoiding tragedies such as this. In my home, family members are instructed to respond when another hollers, "Who's there!" Verbal challenge starts the process of assessing unusual activity or noise. If the challenge goes unanswered, it's repeated, "Who's there! What are you doing?" while moving away from the area of commotion to a position of safety or advantage. If necessary, the challenge can escalate to "I have a gun! I've called police! Get out now!" Simple, effective, no misunderstandings -- it conveys the deadly seriousness of the situation and allows a home defender to assess the threat. Tell the bad guy to leave. Shoot to stop for deadly danger only. Shawn Dodson Titusville