Steel cased ammo in an AR

[simonrichter]

A friend of mine who is an MP NCO and tactics trainer told me that I don't need to worry about shooting steel cased (Barnaul) ammo in my AR (a 10.5" "CQBR-Style" with direct gas impingement, if that is of any relevance).

I don't care whether there is a jam from time to time, I just don't want to ruin my new platform...

[ed308]

Some ARs can handle it, others not as well. I've got a couple of ARs that I've shoot a lot of steel case ammo out of. You'll likely need to clean the rifle much more often. I won't shoot it out of any AR that I care about. Dirty, inaccurate ammo compared to my reloads. But maybe that works for you.

[kenny53]

I have shot a bunch of steel case out of my M&P 15, works well. I shoot brass at indoor ranges and steel out is the desert.

[marine6680]

I would not use it in a target rifle, nor one that isn't chrome lined. Nitrided might be fine though.

It does wear out barrels faster. This effect is exaggerated in plain steel/stainless barrels.

Cuts barrel life in half or so, even with chrome lined. If you shoot a lot, then it will matter. Usually the cheaper price makes it worth it for some high volume shooters... Even factoring in the cost of a new barrel.

Right now, I can get brass for $1 a box more than steel, so the value is eroded a bit.

It is definitely dirtier ammo... Some rifles don't like it, as the ammo is a bit weak and the pressure curve is a bit weird, and they don't cycle well.

[Targa]

There is not enough of a price difference between the cheap brass offerings vs. the steel case offerings to make it worth it to me. As for my AK? All that will ever see is the cheap steel cased stuff. The price difference between steel cased 7.62x39 and brass makes it worth it to me.

[Reloadron]

Every time this line of question comes along there will be a reference to this test done by Lucky Gunner so I may as well toss it out for your reading pleasure. Personally I don't shoot the stuff simply because I never had a need to and I seldom shoot factory ammunition. These guys ran through some serious numbers in ammunition. They include all the numbers and failure data. Anyway it is worth a read.

Ron

[marine6680]

The lucky gunner test is helpful, but has some issues... They abused the rifles... They fired them so fast, that they got the barrels way overheated. That hurt the barrel life on the whole

But they abused them all similarly, so its at least internally consistent.

They managed 6000rds in the steel cased rifle, before it was wore out... If you didn't abuse the rifle... Likely, you could put 10,000 rounds through a chrome lined AR before they wore the point they are in the test.

But I think they had them wore out to a pretty far gone point, so if you want to change the barrel at still decent accuracy levels... It would be less.

[COSteve]

You want to shoot crap steel cased, commie ammo? Fine. You're looking for your AR to go bang, nothing more. If it stays in good shape, fine. If the steel cased ammo screws it up, fine. You asked for whatever you get.

[mehavey]

It does wear out barrels faster.

How does a steel case wear out a barrel ?

[marine6680]

How does a steel case wear out a barrel ?

Cheap steel cased ammo almost always has bimetal projectiles.

Bimetal bullets are a lead core with a mild steel jacket. The steel jacket sometimes has a thin layer of copper. Lately they have moved away from that, to save cost.

The steel jacket has more friction in the barrel, and causes more wear.

[Ignition Override]

It would really help if people were to distinguish between steel 'cases' (which hold primer and powder) and bullets which are often copper-plated or zinc alloy-plated steel.

Did the OP imply that he meant cases, or bullets?

If an extractor is made of high-quality steel, it would seem that it is strong enough to extract steel 'shells'/'cases'.
If it is cheap commercial-grade steel used in the US-made I.O 'AK'. or Century Arms US-made RAS 'AK' then the strength is doubtful.

My (former) brand-new S&W Sport II 'M4' used only Wolf or Tula .223 ammo, approx. 300 rds. total, with a perfect operation.
This first AR-styled gun never 'grew on me' (character), so it was traded for a Hungarian AK.

[marine6680]

"Steel cased" usually implies the cheap stuff...

That implies foreign made steel cased...

That means bimetal bullets... You can't really separate one from the other...


And yes, some extra wear on the extractor is expected, but that is a known wear item, they get replaced before a barrel usually.

[COSteve]

Yes, steel cased ammo can 'wear out the barrel' with a copper and lead fmj bullet because the chamber is also part of the barrel and a worn chamber causes as many accuracy problems as a worn muzzle or rifling.

That said, the exceptions taken above are still valid as the issues are different between a worn or pitted chamber, worn or pitted rifling, or a worn muzzle.

[kraigwy]

I'll not shoot steel case ammo in any of my guns.

The cartridge case has two purposes. One is to hold all the components together.

The second, and more critical is a seal, to seal the pressure in the chamber. The case expands, sealing the chamber, then quickly retracts after the bullet is gone, to allow easy extraction. Brass expands more efficiently sealing the chamber, and then contracts more quickly then steel, allowing for easier extraction.

Brass is softer so it creates less friction in the chamber.

223 ammo, even in brass cases is fairly cheap these days. I see no reason to fire cheap steel case crap in my 223s OR any of my guns.

[zukiphile]

You want to shoot crap steel cased, commie ammo? Fine. You're looking for your AR to go bang, nothing more. If it stays in good shape, fine. If the steel cased ammo screws it up, fine. You asked for whatever you get.

I have some 75 grain Tula that shoots as well as Privi brass cased 77 grain. 55 grain Wolf is better in the brass case than the steel in my rifles. They are all better than Federal 62 grain green tipped in my rifles.

I've never had a function problem with any of them so long as I didn't switch to brass after bunches of steel.

[hdwhit]

simonrichter wrote:
...worry about shooting steel cased ... ammo in my AR...

First make sure you are distinghishing between ammunition with a steel case and ammunition that has a steel or composite (called bi-metal) projectile.

Steel case ammunition resides in the chamber of the rifle and so doesn't involve the leade or the rifling. Steel case ammunition will supposedly shorten the life of the extractor, so it would be prudent to purchase a replacement for the extractor, spring and pin to have on hand.

Steel jacketed (or bimetal) projectiles are harder on the rifling of the barrel because the hardness of the bullet jacket is closer to the hardness of the barrel and so will wear the barrel out more quickly than if you were solely firing gilding metal jacketed bullets. How much more quickly is dependent upon a number of factors including twist rate, whether the barrel is lined/treated, how hot the powder is, how hot you let the barrel get while shooting, etc., so nobody can give you more than a general estimate as to what the relative wear rates might be.

At the end of the day, for the high volume shooter, the barrel should be regarded as a wear item (just like brake pads on a car) and subject to periodic replacement. For low volume shooters like myself, the question of barrel wear is something for my heirs to worry about.

[doofus47]

Although I shoot steel-cased ammo for my 7.62AK rifles (including one AR), I shoot only brass in my .223 rifles.

The steel casing hasn't broken my extractor on my AR which was something I'd been warned about b/c of a combo of thinner bolt rim and harder metal.

[Nathan]

You're fine. Steel case ammo may run or not run, but if it does, it will be fine.

I say this because barrel wear causes accuracy to degrade. A 10.5" AR typically is shot under 100 yds for combat accuracy. When your 2 MOA barrel wears to 2.5 MOA after 20000 rounds, will you care? If you do care, will $150-200 to replace it feel like undue burden?

This is the reality of barrel wear. It doesn't become unsafe and accuracy drop off is usually slow and steady.

The people who care are the people shooting 0.4MOA and 0.6MOA is losing.

[Ignition Override]

If the OP actually lives in Austria, the next barrel could cost a bit more than in the US.

[Reloadron]

Rifles like the SKS, AK47 and similar including the old Mosin Nagant were designed around the ammunition they shoot. They have no problem with steel cartridges and mild steel jacket bullets. As to your AR 15 barrel? If you are concerned I would call the guys who made your barrel. I would guess they know better than anyone here what is or is not good for the barrel. A phone call or email to customer support should answer your question in short order.

Ron

[simonrichter]

I was actually referring to steel CASES, but it appeats these come in a package with steel bullets sometimes - THX for that piece of information, wasn't aware of it.

I'm pretty sure I will never run more than 1000 +/- rounds through my AR, though, so maybe the difference may not be that signifikant (again, of it's only about the disadvantages of steel CASES)

[Erno86]

You should have better extraction with steel cased ammo, because steel case rims are stronger than brass cased rims; which gives the extractor a stronger tension bite on the steel cased rim.

[Slamfire]

Cheap steel cased ammo almost always has bimetal projectiles.

Bimetal bullets are a lead core with a mild steel jacket. The steel jacket sometimes has a thin layer of copper. Lately they have moved away from that, to save cost.

The steel jacket has more friction in the barrel, and causes more wear.

This was a problem early on, and I am talking about pre WW1. There were a number of countries that used steel jacketed bullets and those wore out barrels. The cupro nickel bullets were not that much better, they fouled something awful. But, both of these were commonly greased and fired greased to reduce barrel wear, and for the cupro nickel, to reduce fouling.

This is from 1916:


A TREATISE COVERING THE MANUFACTURE Of RIFLE CARTRIDGE CASES, BULLETS- 1916
http://archive.org/stream/cartridgem...irich_djvu.txt

Cupro-nickel jacketed bullets are generally employed for military rifles and are used by the Belgian, British, Canadian, Danish, Italian, Roumanian, Russian, Spanish, and American governments. The German, Greek, Dutch, and Turkish governments use steel envelopes coated with cupro- nickel ; Austria uses greased steel, and Japan, copper. Bullets coated with cupro-nickel are likely to set up metallic fouling in the bore of the gun, consisting of streaks of metal which adhere to the lands and grooves in the bore.

Bullets with greased steel envelopes do not appear to cause metallic fouling, but they wear away the rifling in the gun much quicker.

The bullet used in the Swiss rifle cartridge is of a peculiar construction. The body is made of a hard lead alloy, provided with a nickel-plated steel envelope covering the point only, the remainder of the bullet being covered with paper lubricated with vaseline. The lower portion of the bullet which enters the cartridge case is smaller in diameter than the jacketed portion. The wounding power of this bullet is great, but its velocity is not as great as those provided with the full envelope.

I found an article in the Arms and the Man about the 280 Ross bullets. There were 280 Ross cartridges issued with greased steel jacketed bullets and cartridges with cupro nickel bullets. It was a common practice to shoot the greased steel bullets after shooting a number of the cupro nickel bullets, to shoot the cupro nickel fouling out.

I believe that greasing the bullets of 223 steel case ammunition may very well reduce barrel wear. I am certain it will reduce fouling. It will probably improve function as lubricant on the case sidewalls will break the friction between case and chamber. The 223 cartridge was a wildcat and based what I have read by the developer, he did not study case contraction or case clearance after firing. This is critically important for an automatic cartridge, you want the most clearance between case and chamber as the pressure curve drops because you don't want the case sticking in the chamber. The end result has been, the 223 and 5.56 case drags in the chamber during extraction, and drags worse when the case material is steel.

I have been shooting greased bullets and greased cases. I believe the bore cleans out quicker with greased bullets, though I have not shot enough through any one barrel to prove reduced wear. I also shoot greased cases, especially on the first time, so I get a perfect, stress free, fireformed case. Bench Rest National Champions do this when fire forming their cases.








Greased bullets also shoot fine, as shown by these targets from my 300 H&H.

[Targa]

Learn something new everyday......I had no idea shooters greased their ammo.

[Slamfire]

Learn something new everyday......I had no idea shooters greased their ammo

Shooters are largely oblivious to case lubrication or the history of case lubrication. They are also largely obvious to the lubricated cases they use. The most prevalent are 22 lr ammunition. Twenty two ammunition is coated from tip to rim in either a wax coating, or, is greased. The expensive match .22lr is greased. Every round of SK Standard Plus, Rifle Match Lapua Center-X, Midas Plus, Eley Black box and Eley Tennex is completely greased. Eley match is sold in shrink wrapped bricks of 500, the individual boxes are fairly air tight containers, and this is all so the grease does not dry out. Eley Edge has a dry lubricant, and it does not shoot as accurately as the greased ammunition. I bought a case and a half of lot tested Edge and I am not impressed with the stuff. Edge has been heavily discounted whereas the price of a case of 5000 of Eley Match has gone up consistently about $200 a year for the last three years.

Not only is the grease a bullet lubricant, but it aids in extraction. The ammunition developed for Biathlon shooters has a special cold weather lubricant. My gun club used to have a December combined rifle and pistol match. Standard rimfire ammunition would fail to extract or feed because the waxes used as a lubricant coating would condense in the mechanism causing a failure to feed, or a failure to eject. Eley knows feed and ejection are important to Biathlon competitors so here they are bragging about their cold weather formulation.

https://www.eleyammunition.com/competition

ELEY tenex biathlon features a flat-nose bullet profile with a slightly reduced bullet diameter and cold weather lubricant - ensuring proper feeding and firing in cold temperatures.

George Frost, in his book "Making Ammunition" states aluminum case ammunition is coated with a wax to break the friction between case and chamber. It is probably the same ceresin wax that Pedersen used on his cartridge cases.