.454 Casull Rifle Receivers

Spectre · May 20, 2001, 05:14 PM

At some point in the future- after my current project gun is done- I would like to have a 16.5" bl .454 Casull/.45 Colt rifle built. I believe there are two ways to do it, but I am unsure of back thrust of the .454 relative to rifle rounds. I do know that its pressure is much higher than most rounds.

I believe there are two ways one could go:

1. Bolt action. Again, I don't know what type of action will be strong enough. (Arisaka? Mauser?) I would really like a repeater, but the only .454 rifle I am aware of as of this point is the Browning High-Wall...a single shot. If a bolt-actioned receiver capable of handling the force is too hard to find, then

2. Double rifle. I believe it should be possible to have barrels built that would replace the barrels on one of the inexpensive former Com-bloc double-bl shotguns we're seeing now. (I would go for an over/under if going this route.) I would prefer more than two shots, but the advantage of this method would be that I could also have barrels made in 9.3x64mm, .45-70, .450 NE, etc.

Suggestions? Will it be difficult to find a (hopefully value-priced) bolt-gun receiver that will handle the fire-breathing .454 loads? If so, will the double 12 receiver do the job? Thanks in advance!

---------------
There's nothing short of dyin'
Half as lonesome as the sound...

[Edited by Spectre on 05-21-2001 at 02:24 PM]

C.R.Sam · May 20, 2001, 07:30 PM

Siamese Mauser..they have been used with 45-70 extra hot loads.
Winchester 95, big nuff and stout nuff. Box magazine.
Marlin 1895, big nuff and stout nuff. Tube magazine.

Happy pondering....Sam

Romulus · May 20, 2001, 09:30 PM

How about a US Enfield action or a P-14 Enfield...the receivers are MASSIVE...

Just thinking out loud...

Doctari · May 20, 2001, 10:31 PM

What's the nominal pressure on the 454 casull?

I would imagine if a modern bolt action rifle can handle bottle neck rifle rounds at 65,000 psi, it should handle the casull. Unless that round is a pressure monster and I just don't know it.

I would also think that if a Marlin 1895 can handle 45-70 cor-bon loadings it could handle a casull. Certainly the lever action platform lends itself to rimmed pistol rounds maybe better than a bolt action.

I'd put my trust in a strong single shot falling block action before a codgered together double rifle outta an original shotgun action.

My thoughts,

Doctari

George Stringer · May 21, 2001, 08:30 AM

Spectre, I'm not sure what the max pressure is for the .454 but some of the standard loads for this round generate 52,000 CUP which while are monster pistol loads would be fairly easily digested by 98 Mausers, Enfields, Arisakas etc. A Siamese Mauser might be the easiest conversion and I'd have to look into it but a Mosin Nagant might also work well. George

BAD_KARMA · May 21, 2001, 09:09 AM

The 454 operates at relly high pressures. Winchester had to get new equipment to test the proof loads. The Marlin 1895 is rated to about 40,000 lbs. I would think the 7600 pump rifle could be used.

Spectre · May 21, 2001, 07:22 PM

Is Siamese Mauser suggested because of the force this cartridge generates, or because it would easier to modify the bolt face? I don't think of the .454 (a slightly stretched .45 Colt) as an enormous round (less than 1.796"), just a powerful one- on the order of a .45-70 at the receiving end, but from a pistol round.

George, I would consider the Nagant- if one could find a way to have a real, useable safety on one!

Hodson lists reload data at up to 53,700 CUP.

George Stringer · May 22, 2001, 06:25 AM

Spectre, yes the Siamese uses a rimmed cartridge to begin with so the conversion would be a little easier on it. I researched the Nagant a little yesterday and the highest pressure I found it proofed with so far is 49,000. That was in Frank de Haas "Bolt Action Rifles". He also said that several had been converted to 30-06 and had blown up but he seemed to be of the opinion that these were simply chambered without setting back the barrel and that the blowups were due to oversize chambers. I can't imagine a 30-06 blowing one if it was chambered correctly. I'm still looking into it. George

Spectre · May 22, 2001, 05:06 PM

George, I know the Nagants are very economical, but is there a practical way to put a useable safety on them?

George Stringer · May 23, 2001, 07:00 AM

Spectre, I'll have to look one over and give it some thought. There aren't any aftermarket safeties that I know of for these rifles but maybe I can come up with something. I can't promise. I'll have to put my inginear cap on. George

Drundel · May 24, 2001, 08:46 PM

What does CUP stand for?

What about buying a Marlin .450M and using it?

Spectre · May 26, 2001, 04:26 PM

CUP = Copper Units of Pressure (I guess!)

Alaska Roy · May 30, 2001, 02:58 AM

BEWARE the Marlins! They are at their limit at 40,000 while the new weaker 454 Casull ammo runs 52.000. The older Freedom Arms ammo ran to 60,000 and many handloaders pump them up to 80,000
Roy

Spectre · May 30, 2001, 10:23 AM

CZ is apparently using the same frame on their o/o shotgun as their new .458 Mag double...I just hadn't considered the problem with regulation.

Drundel · June 2, 2001, 05:07 PM

Just found this.

http://www.browning.com/products/cat...5_highwall.htm

Spectre · June 5, 2001, 10:48 PM

I just can't see (at this point in my life) paying $800 or more for a single-shot rifle that might never be fired at targets more than 200 yards away.

I'm certain it is a beautiful and responsive arm; were I to get a high-wall, though, I believe 'twould be a .45-100, or somesuch.

May 24, 2001, 08:46 PM	#11
Drundel Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2000 Location: Friendswood, TX Posts: 559	What does CUP stand for? What about buying a Marlin .450M and using it? __________________ Shotshell Information Page Texas A&M University Proud member of the Fighting Class of '00

May 30, 2001, 02:58 AM	#13
Alaska Roy Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 281	454 Casull Pressures- BEWARE the Marlins! They are at their limit at 40,000 while the new weaker 454 Casull ammo runs 52.000. The older Freedom Arms ammo ran to 60,000 and many handloaders pump them up to 80,000 Roy

June 2, 2001, 05:07 PM	#15
Drundel Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2000 Location: Friendswood, TX Posts: 559	Just found this. http://www.browning.com/products/cat...5_highwall.htm __________________ Shotshell Information Page Texas A&M University Proud member of the Fighting Class of '00

May 20, 2001, 05:14 PM	#1
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	At some point in the future- after my current project gun is done- I would like to have a 16.5" bl .454 Casull/.45 Colt rifle built. I believe there are two ways to do it, but I am unsure of back thrust of the .454 relative to rifle rounds. I do know that its pressure is much higher than most rounds. I believe there are two ways one could go: 1. Bolt action. Again, I don't know what type of action will be strong enough. (Arisaka? Mauser?) I would really like a repeater, but the only .454 rifle I am aware of as of this point is the Browning High-Wall...a single shot. If a bolt-actioned receiver capable of handling the force is too hard to find, then 2. Double rifle. I believe it should be possible to have barrels built that would replace the barrels on one of the inexpensive former Com-bloc double-bl shotguns we're seeing now. (I would go for an over/under if going this route.) I would prefer more than two shots, but the advantage of this method would be that I could also have barrels made in 9.3x64mm, .45-70, .450 NE, etc. Suggestions? Will it be difficult to find a (hopefully value-priced) bolt-gun receiver that will handle the fire-breathing .454 loads? If so, will the double 12 receiver do the job? Thanks in advance! --------------- There's nothing short of dyin' Half as lonesome as the sound... [Edited by Spectre on 05-21-2001 at 02:24 PM]

May 20, 2001, 07:30 PM	#2
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Siamese Mauser..they have been used with 45-70 extra hot loads. Winchester 95, big nuff and stout nuff. Box magazine. Marlin 1895, big nuff and stout nuff. Tube magazine. Happy pondering....Sam

May 20, 2001, 09:30 PM	#3
Romulus Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2001 Location: Kettle Moraine country Posts: 897	How about a US Enfield action or a P-14 Enfield...the receivers are MASSIVE... Just thinking out loud...

May 20, 2001, 10:31 PM	#4
Doctari Member Join Date: March 27, 1999 Location: Lansing, MI Posts: 86	What's the nominal pressure on the 454 casull? I would imagine if a modern bolt action rifle can handle bottle neck rifle rounds at 65,000 psi, it should handle the casull. Unless that round is a pressure monster and I just don't know it. I would also think that if a Marlin 1895 can handle 45-70 cor-bon loadings it could handle a casull. Certainly the lever action platform lends itself to rimmed pistol rounds maybe better than a bolt action. I'd put my trust in a strong single shot falling block action before a codgered together double rifle outta an original shotgun action. My thoughts, Doctari

May 21, 2001, 08:30 AM	#5
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Spectre, I'm not sure what the max pressure is for the .454 but some of the standard loads for this round generate 52,000 CUP which while are monster pistol loads would be fairly easily digested by 98 Mausers, Enfields, Arisakas etc. A Siamese Mauser might be the easiest conversion and I'd have to look into it but a Mosin Nagant might also work well. George

May 21, 2001, 09:09 AM	#6
BAD_KARMA Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2000 Posts: 171	The 454 operates at relly high pressures. Winchester had to get new equipment to test the proof loads. The Marlin 1895 is rated to about 40,000 lbs. I would think the 7600 pump rifle could be used.

May 21, 2001, 07:22 PM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Is Siamese Mauser suggested because of the force this cartridge generates, or because it would easier to modify the bolt face? I don't think of the .454 (a slightly stretched .45 Colt) as an enormous round (less than 1.796"), just a powerful one- on the order of a .45-70 at the receiving end, but from a pistol round. George, I would consider the Nagant- if one could find a way to have a real, useable safety on one! Hodson lists reload data at up to 53,700 CUP.

May 22, 2001, 06:25 AM	#8
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Spectre, yes the Siamese uses a rimmed cartridge to begin with so the conversion would be a little easier on it. I researched the Nagant a little yesterday and the highest pressure I found it proofed with so far is 49,000. That was in Frank de Haas "Bolt Action Rifles". He also said that several had been converted to 30-06 and had blown up but he seemed to be of the opinion that these were simply chambered without setting back the barrel and that the blowups were due to oversize chambers. I can't imagine a 30-06 blowing one if it was chambered correctly. I'm still looking into it. George

May 22, 2001, 05:06 PM	#9
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	George, I know the Nagants are very economical, but is there a practical way to put a useable safety on them?

May 23, 2001, 07:00 AM	#10
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Spectre, I'll have to look one over and give it some thought. There aren't any aftermarket safeties that I know of for these rifles but maybe I can come up with something. I can't promise. I'll have to put my inginear cap on. George

May 26, 2001, 04:26 PM	#12
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	CUP = Copper Units of Pressure (I guess!)

May 30, 2001, 10:23 AM	#14
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	CZ is apparently using the same frame on their o/o shotgun as their new .458 Mag double...I just hadn't considered the problem with regulation.

June 5, 2001, 10:48 PM	#16
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I just can't see (at this point in my life) paying $800 or more for a single-shot rifle that might never be fired at targets more than 200 yards away. I'm certain it is a beautiful and responsive arm; were I to get a high-wall, though, I believe 'twould be a .45-100, or somesuch.