Why so much discrepancy in 9mm formulas, & where do I go from here?

[customfret]

I've been reloading for a little over a year now, & have been able to work up accurate & soft ahooting loads for my .45, .38's, & 40's by starting with published "starting" loads & working from there.

The published data for 115g FMJ in 9mm seem to be much hotter than the other starting loads were.
I wanted a soft shooting load that would still cycle the Keltec P-11 I carry on my early morning 3 to 4 mile walks in the woods with my dogs. Occasionally I'll shoot a treed squirrel out for them or if we run up on a pack of dogs (usually in this area, about 1/2 of them will be coy-dogs) just the sound of a shot & they are gone.

I bought some 115 FMJ bullets & a have a couple cans of Unique, so I looked on the sheet that came with my Lee dies, & it says to start with 5.8g of Unique. I also looked at Alliant's web site & downloaded their receipe, which sayw 5.5g, so I put the .71 auto disc in my Lee 1000, which actually throws a weighed 5.6g of Unique, & loaded a few rounds. OUCH! They had about the same recoil as my P-40! This is a STARTING load? The primers looked pretty cratered around the firing pin dents, & the cases had quite a bit of bulge. So I pulled out the trusty Lyman book & discovered it starts with 4.4g of Unique, only with an oal of 1.090" instead of the 1.120" I have been using. Hummm...

So, I just bought the adjustable gizmo that replaces the disc in the Lee Auto Disc powder measure, and am wondering if I should just keep the oal at 1.120" & drop the charge a couple of tenths...load a few & see how they shoot, repeat, etc., until I find something that I like, or should I REALLY confuse the issue & mess with trying another powder or with oal?

You guys have a lot more experience with this stuff than I do, so I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks!

[CHAINSAW]

Customfret, I understand if you want to stay with the same powder. I would use Alliants data, or the bullet manufacturers data for the Unique powder.

It also makes a difference as to what bullet you use, along with case and primer.

I load for 3 different 9's, one a Kel-tec P11. I have found that 5.0 (five) grains of Accurate #2 Improved(weighed on my RCBS Ohaus scale) with Hornady's 115 FMJ , WSP primer, and mixed cases, mainly Win and Sellier&Bellot. This loading works well in all I own, including the Kel-Tec. My Cartridge OAL is 1.40.

The velocity is 1050-1075 fps in the Kel-Tec. Depending on weather. The standard deviation is less than 10 also.

AA#2 in inexpensive, fairly clean burning. meters well thru my RCBS powder measure(ball type powder) and cycles my K-T, S&W 5904- and Marlin Camp Carbine, and gives consistent velocity in all three. I could go higher but this matches the velocity of the Sellier&Bellott factory ammo I purchased, and the cases don't grow much so trimming is needed less.

Velocity
Kel-Tec--------------1050-1075 Varies more with weather 0-80 deg.
S&W-----------------1165-1170
Camp Carbine-----1280-1285

[jjmorgan64]

for a real nice mild load i use 4.3 gr unique and a 124 gr lrn, just a fun load to shoot.

[Maximus Firepowerus]

Well...

I don't want to flame anyone here, but as usual the devil is in the detail. In both Alliant's reloading manual and the website (the disclaimer page before it lets you see the load data for the bullet you picked) it says the following.

"THE POWDER CHARGE LISTED IN OUR DATA TABLES ARE MAXIMUM- FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL LOADS, THE MAXIMUM POWDER CHARGE SHOULD BE REDUCED BY 10% TO ESTABLISH A MINIMUM OR STARTING POWDER CHARGE."

So the Alliant page was telling you you max charge is 5.5 grains. Someone loaded 5.6 grains as a start charge and then they wonder why it kicked so bad....

Sorry.

It's those #@!$ details.

[Freedom in theSkies]

Personally, I would start with about 4.0 gr. of Unique and go with the longest col possible.
I have read that if you go below 1.080" the pressure spikes rapidly with possible catastrophic results.
If it is not enough to cycle the pistol, try going up in .1gr increments or get a softer recoil spring for use with your light loads.

Hope it helps.

[spleenandideal]

Or switch to Bullseye if you insist on loading 115gr fmj.

(Usual disclaimers are in effect)

I like 4.2~4.3 gr bullseye for the above mentioned bullets with COL 1.160"

runs great in all of my guns and is quite accurate and mild shooting, though dirty.

[WESHOOT2]

First, keep everything exactly the same.

Then drop the charge weight slightly (I use .2g increments).
Test.
Drop.
Repeat.

Repost your results.

[customfret]

Thanks, guys!

I think what threw me off is the info for 115g jacketed in the Lee chart that came with the dies. I compared it with the Alliant data, and since both give an oal of 1.120" and the Lee sheet gives a STARTING load of 5.8g & a max. of 6.1g!, (for 1185pfs) and the Alliant 5.5g, (for 1168 fps) I reasoned that 5.6g would be an OK place to start. On the other hand, my Lyman book, which only shows data for 115g JHP, suggests starting with 4.4g unique and gives a max of 5.8g, but with 1.090" oal, and I didn't know how much the shorter oal would change the suggested starting load.

The data for the other calibers I've been reloading matched more closely so starting loads were easier for me to decide on.

This is also the first load I've tried to work up using the Lee Auto-Disk measure, which seems to throw a much lighter charge than the chart that came with the powder measure indicates, at least with the new Unique I've been measuring. According to the chart, the .71 (cc?) disk should throw a 6.5g charge, but my scales say the charge averages 5.6g. The next incrememt down is a .66, which the chart says will throw 6.0g instead of the 5.2g mine weighs.

Now that I have the "micrometer adjustable charge bar", I should be able to drop the charge in small increments as I did working up the other loads on a single stage press....using the process WESHOOT2 suggests.

I'll post my results, and thanks again!

[swabjocky]

I also own and shoot a kel-tec 9.the recoil was reduced by using 5.2 gr. vv3n37 under a 115gr. berrys bullet.I dont know the speed,but it shoots mild. oal 1.142

swab

[Clark]

Watch out for HS-6, AA#5, and 3N37 with 115 gr 9x19. Those powders can fit engough in the case to bulge and blow out a case down a poorly supporting feed ramp.

When I tested 115 gr bullets with Blue Dot, 800X, H110, LIL'GUN, Bullseye, 2400, AA#9, and Unique, I found there is more velocity and less danger with Power Pistol. There is also more flash, recoil, and noise too.

I was testing 9x19 at 1.169" OAL.

Last week I converted a pistol to 9x23 and worked up loads at 1.3" with Power Pistol, 3N37, N105, and Blue Dot [without published starting points in all but 3N37]. LONGSHOT came out the winner in velocity. The results are very OAL dependent.

The 357 mag at 1.6" OAL has as a winner LIL'GUN. That powder is too bulky to get anywhere in a short cartridge.

What does it all mean?
Stay on top of OAL, and wear shooting glasses.

[ryucasta]

These numbers were generated by QuickLOAD Internal Ballistics software. I would only use them for COMPARISON.

Cartridge : 9 mm Luger (Para)
Bullet : 9 mm, 115 gr, Berrys TMJ RN
Cartridge O.A.L. L6 : 1.142 inch or 29.01 mm
Barrel Length : 4.0 inch or 101.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Muzzle Velocity: 950 fps or 289 m/s

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load ordering can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz Btime
% Grains fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------
Norma R123 105.6 9.1 950 54.8 14191 5707 0.591
Winchester 296 122.6 11.2 950 36.3 18432 4894 0.533
Vihtavuori N105 91.3 6.2 950 69.9 14944 4822 0.577
Ramshot Enforcer 108.2 9.0 950 48.3 16615 4696 0.553
Hodgdon H110 117.2 10.7 950 40.3 18208 4660 0.535
Vihtavuori N110 121.3 9.1 950 47.0 17966 4619 0.537
Alliant 2400 100.7 8.1 950 49.2 16171 4617 0.561
Alliant POWER PISTOL 73.7 5.2 950 69.6 15804 4531 0.571
Alliant BLUE DOT 103.4 6.9 950 58.6 16436 4528 0.564
Alliant HERCO 95.8 4.7 950 84.8 15895 4431 0.585
Vihtavuori 3N37 69.9 4.8 950 86.2 15600 4372 0.576
Vihtavuori N350 70.5 4.6 950 91.4 15215 4354 0.583
Acc.Arms No.5 62.9 5.6 950 72.8 16786 4334 0.561
Alliant UNIQUE 86.6 4.2 950 89.1 16013 4322 0.582
Alliant Reloder- 7 157.3 13.3 950 30.7 29632 4251 0.465 ! HOT LOAD !
Winchester 540 60.3 5.2 950 80.8 16820 4236 0.559
Ramshot True Blue 60.4 5.2 950 80.6 16831 4236 0.559
Ramshot Silhouette 62.7 4.7 950 86.7 16662 4184 0.561
Winchester WAP 62.9 4.7 950 86.3 16701 4181 0.560
Alliant BULLSEYE 64.4 3.7 950 90.7 16732 4101 0.558
Hodgdon Universal 68.1 3.9 950 96.8 16573 4072 0.580
Acc.Arms No.2 66.8 4.1 950 90.9 17004 4065 0.556
Vihtavuori N330 69.1 4.0 950 97.0 15804 4052 0.571
Vihtavuori N340 70.0 4.2 950 92.3 16967 4029 0.560
Acc.Arms 1680 121.0 11.2 950 35.6 22979 3993 0.495
Hodgdon H4227 128.8 10.0 950 38.0 21595 3915 0.504
IMR 4227 129.5 10.0 950 37.4 21930 3858 0.502
Vihtavuori N120 142.8 11.6 950 34.2 24885 3802 0.484
Winchester 231 53.6 3.9 950 97.9 17734 3774 0.551
Ramshot Zip 53.6 3.9 950 97.9 17734 3774 0.551
Hodgdon HP38 52.6 3.8 950 98.5 17907 3719 0.549
IMR 4198 139.9 11.1 950 32.9 24387 3665 0.486
Alliant GREEN DOT 79.4 3.5 950 100.0 18130 3609 0.556
Hodgdon H4198 147.0 11.2 950 32.1 25359 3590 0.481
Vihtavuori N320 67.6 3.5 950 100.0 17423 3579 0.557
Vihtavuori N130 150.0 12.5 950 30.4 30312 3542 0.459 ! HOT LOAD !
Alliant RED DOT 81.4 3.2 950 100.0 18928 3351 0.547

[Nanaimo Barr]

just cause a powder mesure SHOULD throw a certain weight, that don't make it so.. thats why you should weight your charges (I like to weigh every 10th case) I've seen my Hornaday messure vary as much as 3 grains with Unique.

[zot]

use a ball powder, and check for static in powder measure,I had
some loads in .45acp that where real squibs, bullet stuck in barrel
found a ball of powder blocking full charge, 9mm's come in many
volumes, mill -spec brass is alot thicker and lower charge should be considered,I like W231 for 9mms, or HS6,hate flake powder in my Uniflow!it gets under rotor and gives wrong charge.find a
load that you like, try the powders you can get,and stick with one load that works in your gun.:barf: one beer too many!

[customfret]

And thank all of you very much. Don't worry about the "flame" aspect, as I'm still new at this reloading thing & trying my best to not be so stupid that I blow myself up. Interesting where this thread went, and I appreciate everyone's input. The Unique stuff I loaded last night shot both a lot softer & the offhand groups were much smaller than the "starting" load I first tried....sort of working from the top down this time

Zot, I just happen to have a # of 231 sitting on my reloading bench, & the thought had occurred while weighing many Unique charges last night that the 231 would probably meter much better when trying to throw consistant charges under 4.5g than Unique......

[Nanaimo Barr]

I wonder if anyone has a chart that shows how the differnt messures work with each style of powder.. I have heard a lot of people say that such and such a messure doesn't like to meter thus and thus type of powder (ball, flake etc)..

[stans]

I have both a RCBS Uniflow and a Lyman #55 and neither one is consistent with small charges of large flake powders such as Unique. They do ok with small flakes like Bullseye, but the best uniformity comes from spherical powders. My powder measures do throw large charges of Unique ok, but it is rare that I would want a large charge of Unique. I try to stick to spherical powders for all of my pistol loads.