Ohio Leo abuse of CCW carrier. - Page 2

hogdogs · July 20, 2011, 11:55 PM

BRH, I am on yer side, bud!!! I am simply saying that will be the PC he claims for barging into the guy's car... he also stated that the rear seat passenger was her pimp so he will claim that this "PC" was in the vehicle and "there mighta been some of that dang devil weed these junkies are shootin' in their arm before leaping to their death from an overpass /cuz they thought they could fly..."

But I digress...

Brent

Bamashooter · July 21, 2011, 12:15 AM

Hotdogs your right. The driver told the officer when he was taken from the car he had a gun or permit. I dont think the driver did anything wrong. The police officer is the one with issues. He threatened to kill the driver, he threatened to beat the driver and he constantly cursed and demeaned the driver. He should lose his job and go to jail. Its a shame people like that can get a badge and abuse the public.

blackriderhank · July 21, 2011, 12:17 AM

Yes sir Bama those are true words said

TeamSinglestack · July 21, 2011, 12:23 AM

Quote:

You are much more charitable than I am. I have NO respect for the average officer, because in my experience the average officer acts pretty much like the one in this incident. The good ones are the exceptions, not the bad ones.

/shrug

Sorry to hear that. My experience has been pretty much the complete opposite. While I haven't been pulled over often, pretty much every LEO encounter has been businesslike and fairly cordial.

I don't pick up hookers though, so that may have a detrimental impact on the interaction.

Edit: IMO, there is major fail all around on that video. The officer failed to perform in a professional manner, and got upset at the CHL holder for HE AND HIS OWN PARTNERS' SECURITY LAPSE.

The driver had ample time to notify the LEO's before he eventually did. I'm not buying the "they wouldn't let me notify" excuse. Sure, the law IS vague, however, he COULD have notified them earlier than he did.

BarryLee · July 21, 2011, 12:48 AM

Is it normal protocol for a Police Officer to take as long as they did to secure the driver? It seems they should have secured all the parties before they started their investigation. If they had done this the driver could have notified right away not after the Officer had searched the car. I sort of understand why the Officer was upset, but it seems like it was his own actions that created this situation in the first place.

hogdogs · July 21, 2011, 12:54 AM

Of the NUMEROUS times I have had my car/truck searched on the side of the road... They always had me/us out and never once began a search without first patting me down "for officer safety"...

I will say those cops are lucky the guy did not have ill intent or one or both could have been harmed do to their own haste and failure to practice trained protocols.

brent

csmsss · July 21, 2011, 12:57 AM

The video speaks for itself. The police officers in this case should have had their badges taken the minute their supervisors watched this videotape. That is the most revealing and disgusting thing about all of this - that their supervising officers didn't see enough here to take these two off the street immediately.

The one person in this sequence who behaved admirably, with restraint and a cool head, is the driver. I hope he pursues both criminal and civil complaints against the primary officer in this case.

blackriderhank · July 21, 2011, 01:06 AM

CSMSS,
Great Post and I agree 100%

pjcforpres2020 · July 21, 2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Yesterday, 10:48 PM #13
hogdogs
Senior Member

Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 8,894
Can anyone "capture" this in case it gets pulled down?

Brent

Saved using realplayer flash download.

hogdogs · July 21, 2011, 01:25 AM

Thanks, pjc... Can you send me that? PM or email?
The email inmy contact info is current... and accurate...

Thanks in advance...
brent

pjcforpres2020 · July 21, 2011, 01:56 AM

For those that want to download the copy I made I loaded it to mediafire at this link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?gu4m6ldl8g9b4vh

FYI, if you don't have realplayer already, I highly recommend it. Free video player download that lets you download any flash video from the internet, and lets you play nearly any video on your computer. Also, as you see I used mediafire.com to upload and share this with you. Probably the best file sharing website around, fastest free uploads and downloads, and much easier than emails to share large files.

hogdogs · July 21, 2011, 02:30 AM

PJC pm'd me some names of mayor, congressman etc... I will be burnin' up the phone lines tomorrow!

I sure hope to find it hard to get thru to them due to tied up lines from others doing the same!

Brent

SwampYankee · July 21, 2011, 05:45 AM

The guy made a mistake of not telling the officer he was a CCW when the idiot cop decided to search the back. But when the cops did finally decide to talk to him, he tried to tell them he was carrying. I think it would be difficult to make a felony charge stick, especially if it went to a jury. The behavior of the cops will not sit well with 12 jurors.

That said, every time I have ever seen a stop in real life or on TV, the cops secure everyone involved before they start searching the car. They run everyone's license, they figure out who everyone is. They search everyone before they search the damn car! This cops seem to have done a very sloppy job with this stop right from the start. The entire situation arises from their failure to follow standard protocol.

doofus47 · July 21, 2011, 06:47 AM

I think that Canton needs one fewer cop and one more dog catcher.

Patriot86 · July 21, 2011, 07:13 AM

Any national or local media pick up on this one yet?
If it wasnt for this stupid "debt crisis" it might have made CNN or FOX by now.

Nanuk · July 21, 2011, 07:35 AM

I have been a cop for 32 years, Local, military, Federal. I cannot begin to say how disturbing this video is. Aside from the total lack of professionalism displayed by the cop in the video they made very bad tactical mistakes from the beginning which enable the situation to escalate.

There may be reasons why cop 2 did not say much to cop 1, is he a rookie?

There are bad apples everywhere, people in Law Enforcement are a cross section of society and some slip through that never should have a badge. You can blame things like "no child left behind" and the "nobody fails" mentality for allowing people like this into law enforcement. The only thing we can do is to vigorously go after people like this and remove them from the job. It is the same as in criminal law, you can't arrest someone until the violate the law.

As far as the vehicle search, there is case law that gives us the vehicle exception to the 4th amendment.

Single Six · July 21, 2011, 08:07 AM

I've been full-time LE since 1989. Now, I make no claims of perfection, or of having never made a mistake. Everyone screws up sometime. With that said: Having now watched the in-car camera video of this incident, I cannot in any way, shape, or form defend this officer's actions. His profanity-laced tirade was unprofessional in the extreme, and excruciating to watch. It's this type of behavior that gives LE a black eye in the public's collective mind. I can honestly say that all of my encounters with CCW folks have been the exact opposite of this incident. As I've stated so many times on TFL in the past, I know that a citizen who has gone through the red tape of getting that permit is almost a guaranteed non-threat to me. If anything, he or she is more likely to HELP me out of a bad situation rather than put me into one. I'm glad I watched this video, because it's served to remind me of two important things: First, treating people in the manner that I would like to be treated has worked very well for me for over two decades of LE. Second, I work for the citizens...it's not the other way around. To my TFL comrades: Please remember that not all LEOs act like this guy.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 21, 2011, 08:30 AM

Well, you have a car with two men in it on a dark, abandoned street at night pulled over in a no-parking zone and talking to a woman with past convictions for solicitation who is standing next to the car. I can see where the officers might get the idea there was probable cause to investigate what was going on.

However, the way they went about it seems problematic to me as a know-nothing non-cop. It seems if you are going to use dominance to control a situation, then you need to be thorough about actually controlling the situation and not put yourself in a position where you could easily be killed if the offenders were serious bad guys. And if you do have probable cause to think a crime is taking place, the seriously unprofessional behavior shown in the video doesn't help you at all. I think part of the reason the cop blew up is he immediately understood he could have been dead if these people had wanted that.

As it stands now, even if the officers were right about their initial suspicions, the guy involved is not only not going to be convicted. He is going to receive a big chunk of cash from the department (if that is what he wants) and be that much harder to arrest in the future. And pretty much all of that is a direct result of how this officer approached the investigation.

zukiphile · July 21, 2011, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swampyankee

The guy made a mistake of not telling the officer he was a CCW ...

Ohio notification law demands "prompt" notification. The driver began notification and was instructed not to speak.

Do you observe the statutory obligation, breach of which is a minor misdemeanor, or do you commit contempt of cop in the presence of a PO who seems unable to control himself already?

Patriot86 · July 21, 2011, 08:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/WMMPV4D6cs0...3&hl=en_US

How police officers should act in this kind of situation

copied over from OFCC forums

zukiphile · July 21, 2011, 09:21 AM

Patriot86, I agree.

He was polite while taking precautions for his own safety, didn't get his ego wound up in the exchange, and even maintained a sense of humor.

He should teach the course on how to handle these encounters.

skoro · July 21, 2011, 09:40 AM

Both of my brothers are LEOs. That rabid cop needs to be taken off the street ASAP. The threats he made were insane. The city of Canton should rightly be nervous about losing next year's budget to the lawsuit. Maybe they'll learn to do a more thorough screening of candidates for their police academy in the future.

Skadoosh · July 21, 2011, 09:45 AM

The police can not prevent anyone from speaking. The caption that it could have been deadly to do otherwise is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I would have repeatedly and loudly stated for the video camera that I was lawfully carring a concealed handgun and have my permit to carry ready for inspection as required by law.

Patriot86 · July 21, 2011, 09:46 AM

From the Canton PD facebook page

"I want to assure our citizens that the behavior, as demonstrated in this video, is wholly unacceptable and in complete contradiction to the professional standards we demand of our officers. As such, appropriate steps were placed in motion as dictated by our standards, policies and contractual obligations. Those steps included: The officer immediately being relieved of all duty. The incident has been referred to the Internal Affairs Bureau for what will be a complete and thorough investigation. As bad as the video indicates our officer's actions were, there is a due process procedure to follow. That process is designed in the best interest of both our employees and the citizens at large. That process will be followed in this case as in all others. Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm"

http://www.facebook.com/notes/canton...07621069290829

threegun · July 21, 2011, 10:02 AM

I'm not one to sue however in this case, had I made it out alive, I would sue everyone possible including the officer (if possible).

I said, had I made it out alive, because I exploded at my computer screen when the officer said he should cave in my face. I probably would have begged him to do it now and called him many bad things. I have a very long fuse however someone abusing me while under the protection of authority burns me up fast.

This victim had the patience of a sleepy Mr Rogers. For this he should be commended. He tried to notify and the scumbag told him to shutup. I hope they fire the thug and his partner and sue all to the max.

July 21, 2011, 12:48 AM	#30
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,947	Is it normal protocol for a Police Officer to take as long as they did to secure the driver? It seems they should have secured all the parties before they started their investigation. If they had done this the driver could have notified right away not after the Officer had searched the car. I sort of understand why the Officer was upset, but it seems like it was his own actions that created this situation in the first place. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

July 21, 2011, 07:35 AM	#41
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I have been a cop for 32 years, Local, military, Federal. I cannot begin to say how disturbing this video is. Aside from the total lack of professionalism displayed by the cop in the video they made very bad tactical mistakes from the beginning which enable the situation to escalate. There may be reasons why cop 2 did not say much to cop 1, is he a rookie? There are bad apples everywhere, people in Law Enforcement are a cross section of society and some slip through that never should have a badge. You can blame things like "no child left behind" and the "nobody fails" mentality for allowing people like this into law enforcement. The only thing we can do is to vigorously go after people like this and remove them from the job. It is the same as in criminal law, you can't arrest someone until the violate the law. As far as the vehicle search, there is case law that gives us the vehicle exception to the 4th amendment. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

July 21, 2011, 08:07 AM	#42
Single Six Senior Member Join Date: January 31, 2010 Location: N.C. Posts: 1,522	I've been full-time LE since 1989. Now, I make no claims of perfection, or of having never made a mistake. Everyone screws up sometime. With that said: Having now watched the in-car camera video of this incident, I cannot in any way, shape, or form defend this officer's actions. His profanity-laced tirade was unprofessional in the extreme, and excruciating to watch. It's this type of behavior that gives LE a black eye in the public's collective mind. I can honestly say that all of my encounters with CCW folks have been the exact opposite of this incident. As I've stated so many times on TFL in the past, I know that a citizen who has gone through the red tape of getting that permit is almost a guaranteed non-threat to me. If anything, he or she is more likely to HELP me out of a bad situation rather than put me into one. I'm glad I watched this video, because it's served to remind me of two important things: First, treating people in the manner that I would like to be treated has worked very well for me for over two decades of LE. Second, I work for the citizens...it's not the other way around. To my TFL comrades: Please remember that not all LEOs act like this guy. __________________ Seen on a bumper sticker: "Exercise. Eat right. Take vitamins. Die anyway."

July 21, 2011, 09:21 AM	#46
zukiphile Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2005 Posts: 4,474	Patriot86, I agree. He was polite while taking precautions for his own safety, didn't get his ego wound up in the exchange, and even maintained a sense of humor. He should teach the course on how to handle these encounters. __________________ http://www.npboards.com/index.php

July 21, 2011, 09:40 AM	#47
skoro Senior Member Join Date: April 30, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 1,952	Ohio Leo abuse of CCW carrier Both of my brothers are LEOs. That rabid cop needs to be taken off the street ASAP. The threats he made were insane. The city of Canton should rightly be nervous about losing next year's budget to the lawsuit. Maybe they'll learn to do a more thorough screening of candidates for their police academy in the future.

July 20, 2011, 11:55 PM	#26
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	BRH, I am on yer side, bud!!! I am simply saying that will be the PC he claims for barging into the guy's car... he also stated that the rear seat passenger was her pimp so he will claim that this "PC" was in the vehicle and "there mighta been some of that dang devil weed these junkies are shootin' in their arm before leaping to their death from an overpass /cuz they thought they could fly..." But I digress... Brent

July 21, 2011, 12:15 AM	#27
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	Hotdogs your right. The driver told the officer when he was taken from the car he had a gun or permit. I dont think the driver did anything wrong. The police officer is the one with issues. He threatened to kill the driver, he threatened to beat the driver and he constantly cursed and demeaned the driver. He should lose his job and go to jail. Its a shame people like that can get a badge and abuse the public.

July 21, 2011, 12:17 AM	#28
blackriderhank Member Join Date: May 7, 2011 Location: SC Wisconsin Posts: 21	Yes sir Bama those are true words said

July 21, 2011, 12:54 AM	#31
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Of the NUMEROUS times I have had my car/truck searched on the side of the road... They always had me/us out and never once began a search without first patting me down "for officer safety"... I will say those cops are lucky the guy did not have ill intent or one or both could have been harmed do to their own haste and failure to practice trained protocols. brent

July 21, 2011, 12:57 AM	#32
csmsss Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Orange, TX Posts: 3,078	The video speaks for itself. The police officers in this case should have had their badges taken the minute their supervisors watched this videotape. That is the most revealing and disgusting thing about all of this - that their supervising officers didn't see enough here to take these two off the street immediately. The one person in this sequence who behaved admirably, with restraint and a cool head, is the driver. I hope he pursues both criminal and civil complaints against the primary officer in this case.

July 21, 2011, 01:06 AM	#33
blackriderhank Member Join Date: May 7, 2011 Location: SC Wisconsin Posts: 21	CSMSS, Great Post and I agree 100%

July 21, 2011, 01:25 AM	#35
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Thanks, pjc... Can you send me that? PM or email? The email inmy contact info is current... and accurate... Thanks in advance... brent

July 21, 2011, 01:56 AM	#36
pjcforpres2020 Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Posts: 26	For those that want to download the copy I made I loaded it to mediafire at this link: http://www.mediafire.com/?gu4m6ldl8g9b4vh FYI, if you don't have realplayer already, I highly recommend it. Free video player download that lets you download any flash video from the internet, and lets you play nearly any video on your computer. Also, as you see I used mediafire.com to upload and share this with you. Probably the best file sharing website around, fastest free uploads and downloads, and much easier than emails to share large files.

July 21, 2011, 02:30 AM	#37
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	PJC pm'd me some names of mayor, congressman etc... I will be burnin' up the phone lines tomorrow! I sure hope to find it hard to get thru to them due to tied up lines from others doing the same! Brent

July 21, 2011, 05:45 AM	#38
SwampYankee Registration in progress Join Date: November 1, 2008 Location: I can be found on a number of other forums. Posts: 1,333	The guy made a mistake of not telling the officer he was a CCW when the idiot cop decided to search the back. But when the cops did finally decide to talk to him, he tried to tell them he was carrying. I think it would be difficult to make a felony charge stick, especially if it went to a jury. The behavior of the cops will not sit well with 12 jurors. That said, every time I have ever seen a stop in real life or on TV, the cops secure everyone involved before they start searching the car. They run everyone's license, they figure out who everyone is. They search everyone before they search the damn car! This cops seem to have done a very sloppy job with this stop right from the start. The entire situation arises from their failure to follow standard protocol.

July 21, 2011, 06:47 AM	#39
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	I think that Canton needs one fewer cop and one more dog catcher.

July 21, 2011, 07:13 AM	#40
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	Any national or local media pick up on this one yet? If it wasnt for this stupid "debt crisis" it might have made CNN or FOX by now.

July 21, 2011, 08:30 AM	#43
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Well, you have a car with two men in it on a dark, abandoned street at night pulled over in a no-parking zone and talking to a woman with past convictions for solicitation who is standing next to the car. I can see where the officers might get the idea there was probable cause to investigate what was going on. However, the way they went about it seems problematic to me as a know-nothing non-cop. It seems if you are going to use dominance to control a situation, then you need to be thorough about actually controlling the situation and not put yourself in a position where you could easily be killed if the offenders were serious bad guys. And if you do have probable cause to think a crime is taking place, the seriously unprofessional behavior shown in the video doesn't help you at all. I think part of the reason the cop blew up is he immediately understood he could have been dead if these people had wanted that. As it stands now, even if the officers were right about their initial suspicions, the guy involved is not only not going to be convicted. He is going to receive a big chunk of cash from the department (if that is what he wants) and be that much harder to arrest in the future. And pretty much all of that is a direct result of how this officer approached the investigation.

July 21, 2011, 08:51 AM	#45
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	http://www.youtube.com/v/WMMPV4D6cs0...3&hl=en_US How police officers should act in this kind of situation copied over from OFCC forums

July 21, 2011, 09:45 AM	#48
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	The police can not prevent anyone from speaking. The caption that it could have been deadly to do otherwise is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I would have repeatedly and loudly stated for the video camera that I was lawfully carring a concealed handgun and have my permit to carry ready for inspection as required by law. __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

July 21, 2011, 09:46 AM	#49
Patriot86 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2010 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 1,293	From the Canton PD facebook page "I want to assure our citizens that the behavior, as demonstrated in this video, is wholly unacceptable and in complete contradiction to the professional standards we demand of our officers. As such, appropriate steps were placed in motion as dictated by our standards, policies and contractual obligations. Those steps included: The officer immediately being relieved of all duty. The incident has been referred to the Internal Affairs Bureau for what will be a complete and thorough investigation. As bad as the video indicates our officer's actions were, there is a due process procedure to follow. That process is designed in the best interest of both our employees and the citizens at large. That process will be followed in this case as in all others. Anyone shown to be in violation of our rules and regulations will be help appropriately responsible as dictated by all the facts. ~Chief Dean McKimm" http://www.facebook.com/notes/canton...07621069290829

July 21, 2011, 10:02 AM	#50
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	I'm not one to sue however in this case, had I made it out alive, I would sue everyone possible including the officer (if possible). I said, had I made it out alive, because I exploded at my computer screen when the officer said he should cave in my face. I probably would have begged him to do it now and called him many bad things. I have a very long fuse however someone abusing me while under the protection of authority burns me up fast. This victim had the patience of a sleepy Mr Rogers. For this he should be commended. He tried to notify and the scumbag told him to shutup. I hope they fire the thug and his partner and sue all to the max.