80% Lowers

Cheapshooter · October 30, 2015, 02:19 PM

I see these 80% completed AR lowers advertised as sold directly because they are not considered a receiver by the BATF. I am wondering what the other 20% that is needed involves. The latest I saw included a lower parts kit, and was priced at less than a hundred bucks.

Roughedge · October 30, 2015, 02:32 PM

You have to mill the space for the trigger group and drill the holes for trigger pin and safety.It easy if you have a jig .

Sevens · October 30, 2015, 02:44 PM

I have to laugh at these things. Big store in town sells serialized full stripped lowers for as low as $39 if you buy 5 or more. I think they are $45 or $48 if you just buy one.

I love how these 80% lowers play to the tinfoil crowd by being able to purchase without a form/NICS check, but if you are a law abiding citizen with a clean record... is there any chance you haven't already been down the 4473/NICS road? You can't unring a bell. You can't get your virginity back.

**4V50 Gary** · October 30, 2015, 03:15 PM

Sevens - you make a good point. The only advantage of the 80% lower is the much feared "ghost" gun.

Scorch · October 30, 2015, 03:32 PM

Ooooooh!!! Ghost guns! Scaaaary!!!

Pfft!

This is for the people who think they are either going to
a) be very, very quiet and sneak one by the BATFE . . .
OR
b) build it themselves and save a BUNDLE of bucks!!

Either way, they are delusional or poor fact checkers. Buy an 80% lower or two, buy the jigs, get access to a mill, but drills and end mills, and spend an hour or so finishing up the lower, then apply finish to it, and you could have bought 2 or 3 complete lowers, finished, with all the parts in them. Sure, you have to fill out that scary 4473, but that shouldn't be a deterrent toanyone honest.

skizzums · October 30, 2015, 04:38 PM

Super easy if you have a mill. I am not an engineering genius at all, and I find it to be simple. A jig really isn't needed either, the measurements are available from the manufacturer. Now if your planning to do it by drill press, different ballgame, doesn't look so simple. I enjoyed doing them, they only take a couple hours tops, but I found the savings to be small with PSA's blems etc. The savings is there, but its small and if you screw up, not a whole lot you can do about it.

If your mechanically inclined and really want to save some money, look up 0% lowers, this is assuming your time is worth nothing. I hope to do one someday so I can design my own magwell for odd style pistol mags. Tutorial if interested http://www.arlower.ray-vin.com/disclaimer.htm

Bill DeShivs · October 30, 2015, 05:01 PM

It's always a good idea to have a gun that your friendly government doesn't know about. Clinton, Sanders, Obama and all the liberals really DO want to take your guns away.
As far as cost savings, there isn't any.

Sevens · October 30, 2015, 05:57 PM

If you are fortunate enough to live in one of the 50 states that kind of somewhat still looks like America... a used gun in a private sale is exactly that.

Comprises more than half of what I own.

Cheapshooter · October 30, 2015, 06:17 PM

My interest wss in the cost savings, not "sneaking" something past the Government. However that really isn't that far fetched of an idea depending on 2016

Sevens, what "Big" store?

skizzums · October 30, 2015, 07:19 PM

Your first post asked "what is required to finish the 20%"?. It's as simple as milling out the shelf at the rear, then widening as you mill out the entire trigger group area, the simply drilling the two holes on the side(trigger and hammer pin) and then the hole for the trigger itself. The buffer tube is already drilled/threaded, magwell is finished(including the bolt stop pin holes etc) and exterior is likely finished. If your okay with polymer lowers, you may want to do one first. The color options can be fun to play with too. But that's really it, look down into your AR lower, and note that only the fire control area, trigger, safety and hammer/trigger pins need to be done, not much work.

Here are some pics of my recent polymer, even a bonus where I messed up the trigger hole. Luckily it wad polymer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=9mm+ar

Sevens · October 30, 2015, 08:07 PM

Vance's, Columbus OH, three locations.

100% lowers. Aluminum.

barnbwt · October 31, 2015, 09:02 AM

"I love how these 80% lowers play to the tinfoil crowd "
Didn't occur to you that some people like making things with tools? I brew my own beer, too, and not because I avoid excise taxes

TCB

Sevens · October 31, 2015, 01:07 PM

Do you buy 80% beer kits and just finish the last little bit?

I'm a handloader, I absolutely love the hobby, so yes... I get the crafting angle, but the argument you are bringing? Not the target audience for these 80% lowers.

Gunplummer · October 31, 2015, 01:33 PM

Here is a thought: How do you like jail? There was an article in the newspaper this week of a court case (Hazelton, Pa.) where the guy is going away for a long time. It involved converting a gun to automatic and also owning one or several "Drop in" auto sears that were not registered. I would never believe that the Feds do not keep track of this 80% kind of stuff. I have to agree with the others. There is no reason to do it that will not lead to trouble.

Cheapshooter · October 31, 2015, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Here is a thought: How do you like jail? There was an article in the newspaper this week of a court case (Hazelton, Pa.) where the guy is going away for a long time. It involved converting a gun to automatic and also owning one or several "Drop in" auto sears that were not registered.

I'm not talking about building an illegal weapon. Nothing is illegal about building an otherwise non NFA AR in my state if handeled properly. Just thought it might be a fun project, and save a few bucks along the way. But if serialized, stripped lowers are available at as low of a cost as Sevens mentioned, that would be the route to go.

Sevens · October 31, 2015, 02:45 PM

http://www.vanceoutdoors.com/products2.cfm/ID/124244
They show a price of $69.99 on their site, but I can tell you from decades of shopping with these guys... brick and mortar is their business, so it doesn't surprise me that they choose NOT to compete with other online dealers.

Their original store here goes back to the 1950's (I think?), their second store (huge) on the east side of town has been around more than a decade I believe and their newest location on the south side has been open for about a year and it is a fine destination and includes and indoor range.

My buddy has bought seven of these lowers from them and I'm certain that he didn't pay over $55 for the first one and I know that he jumped on the $39ea when buying 5 or more bandwagon the last time they offered it, and it seems like they offer it a few times a year.

A quick search on Gunbroker shows that they get offered around $45-$50, but then you pay shipping and FFL. These are made in Kentucky. Not polymer, not 80%, no cutting or drilling or hacking on, just insert your parts and go make noise.

FrankenMauser · October 31, 2015, 05:22 PM

Quote:

I have to laugh at these things. Big store in town sells serialized full stripped lowers for as low as $39 if you buy 5 or more. I think they are $45 or $48 if you just buy one.

I love how these 80% lowers play to the tinfoil crowd by being able to purchase without a form/NICS check, but if you are a law abiding citizen with a clean record... is there any chance you haven't already been down the 4473/NICS road? You can't unring a bell. You can't get your virginity back.

I have picked up finished lowers for as little as $34 apiece.

But...
I also finished a pair of 80% polymer lowers last year. They cost me $39 apiece.
Ghost gun? Nope.
Fear of "Gubberment"? Nope.
Intent to traffic in illegal arms? Nope.

I just wanted something to 'play' with; and wanted to see if a ratty, cheap, bench-top Chinese drill press and a nearly-dead (probably counterfeit) "Dremel" could get the job done with no jig.

Both feed, fire, eject, and repeat. The first one had some issues, due to a combination of my failure at the drill press (poor setup) and a bad part (injection molding inclusion). But, I occasionally take the other one out. It looks like any other polymer lower, and it's only problem is that the bolt catch rarely works as intended and sometimes works as never-intended ... but that's a problem caused by the idiot that designed the mold (not something that's touched to finish the lower).

Even though both lowers could be seen as a waste of money, I don't regret the purchase or time invested. It was fun covering my basement in Nylon-66/6 chips and figuring out how to overcome some of the design errors in the part.

--

The beauty of the "80%" aluminum lowers, for guys that just want to 'make' their own lower, is that most of the cosmetic, critical, and/or difficult work (such as magazine well broaching) is already done. All that's left for we peons to do is hog out some metal and drill a few holes in the right places. There's still enough work to be done, and it's still important enough to have a direct impact on function (or total failure), that there's satisfaction to be had from completing the part and turning it into a legal 'firearm'.

It's a bit like muscle car and hot rod guys building their own engines. Sure, there are crate engines available, engine builders all over the country, and thousands of good, running engines that can be dropped right in the car....
But what fun is that?
Just because I can't machine my own block and cylinder heads, or balance a complete rotating assembly, doesn't mean that I don't want to handle all of the other part planning, part procurement, assembly, inspection, priming, testing, and break-in.
Pride. Satisfaction. Knowledge of the equipment. ...And no one to blame, but yourself, if something goes wrong.

All of that being said...
There is one last point to be made:
Some cheap lowers really are crap - especially some of the polymer lowers. At one point in time, I had 9 polymer lowers (including the "eighty percenters"). Now, I'm down to three or four. I don't plan to ever buy another.
Those that I still own will probably stick around, but I won't be taking a chance on any others.

Roughedge · October 31, 2015, 05:32 PM

I got some to let the grandsons learn on the mill, you should see there face when they shoot something they made.

Bill DeShivs · October 31, 2015, 05:43 PM

"Here is a thought: How do you like jail? There was an article in the newspaper this week of a court case (Hazelton, Pa.) where the guy is going away for a long time. It involved converting a gun to automatic and also owning one or several "Drop in" auto sears that were not registered. I would never believe that the Feds do not keep track of this 80% kind of stuff. I have to agree with the others. There is no reason to do it that will not lead to trouble."

There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about building your own gun.
Where do you guys get this stuff?

How would "the feds" know about an item that is not regulated under law? Do they keep track of how many toothbrushes are made?
No one here said anything about unregistered auto-sears and converting guns to automatic.

Gunplummer · October 31, 2015, 05:47 PM

If you want to "make" your own lower, buy a block of 7075 and have at it. Don't try to make completing an 80% AR lower more than it is. I don't doubt a lot of people on this forum could start with a block of wood and make one. I just saw the post above. No, it is not illegal. But it is a long way from "Building" anything. Makes one wonder why people don't start with a black powder revolver kit. A little much , I guess.

Dixie Gunsmithing · October 31, 2015, 06:19 PM

Bill is correct. There is an older case, too, where a guy was caught making guns and if I recall, silencers, from scratch, and none were registered. He was sent up the creek. The guy had a nice shop, with mills, lathes, the works, and lost it all, including his freedom. It is not worth becoming a felon over.

Bill DeShivs · October 31, 2015, 07:23 PM

The only items that the law says must be registered are NFA items.
Regular firearms can be made all day long- no registration or serial numbers required. You can't make guns for SALE, but you can sell guns you made.

BumbleBug · October 31, 2015, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

...Sevens, what "Big" store?

I recently bought 2 stripped Anderson lowers for $40 each from Brownell. With $20 local FFL & shipping about $55 each. I think I could have bought up to 5 for the same FFL fee & shipping.

Just FYI

O4L · October 31, 2015, 08:20 PM

To the OP, if you are looking to save money on a lower, there are deals on finished stripped lowers to be found. No need to go the 80% route just to save money.

I frequently find lowers for $40-50 online here.

slickguns.com

Dixie Gunsmithing · November 1, 2015, 08:47 PM

Bill, the guy I was mentioning was caught manufacturing and selling them. The BATFE found out about the silencers, first, but later found, after their visit, that he was making firearms and selling to some undesirable folks, too. I can't remember if they were semi or full autos, but they were his design.

There was that stink about this and state law, a while back, about manufacturing and selling in state, but not out of state, because it had to do with interstate sales and the UCC. I think 1 or 2 states passed some new laws over it, allowing the manufacture and sales in state. It has been a while now, and I can't remember the details of it all.

October 30, 2015, 02:19 PM	#1
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	80% Lowers I see these 80% completed AR lowers advertised as sold directly because they are not considered a receiver by the BATF. I am wondering what the other 20% that is needed involves. The latest I saw included a lower parts kit, and was priced at less than a hundred bucks. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

October 30, 2015, 02:32 PM	#2
Roughedge Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Location: Monroe,NC Posts: 669	You have to mill the space for the trigger group and drill the holes for trigger pin and safety.It easy if you have a jig . __________________ The man that die's with the most stuff win's!

October 30, 2015, 02:44 PM	#3
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I have to laugh at these things. Big store in town sells serialized full stripped lowers for as low as $39 if you buy 5 or more. I think they are $45 or $48 if you just buy one. I love how these 80% lowers play to the tinfoil crowd by being able to purchase without a form/NICS check, but if you are a law abiding citizen with a clean record... is there any chance you haven't already been down the 4473/NICS road? You can't unring a bell. You can't get your virginity back. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 30, 2015, 03:15 PM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,848	Sevens - you make a good point. The only advantage of the 80% lower is the much feared "ghost" gun. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 30, 2015, 03:32 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Ooooooh!!! Ghost guns! Scaaaary!!! Pfft! This is for the people who think they are either going to a) be very, very quiet and sneak one by the BATFE . . . OR b) build it themselves and save a BUNDLE of bucks!! Either way, they are delusional or poor fact checkers. Buy an 80% lower or two, buy the jigs, get access to a mill, but drills and end mills, and spend an hour or so finishing up the lower, then apply finish to it, and you could have bought 2 or 3 complete lowers, finished, with all the parts in them. Sure, you have to fill out that scary 4473, but that shouldn't be a deterrent toanyone honest. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

October 30, 2015, 04:38 PM	#6
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	Super easy if you have a mill. I am not an engineering genius at all, and I find it to be simple. A jig really isn't needed either, the measurements are available from the manufacturer. Now if your planning to do it by drill press, different ballgame, doesn't look so simple. I enjoyed doing them, they only take a couple hours tops, but I found the savings to be small with PSA's blems etc. The savings is there, but its small and if you screw up, not a whole lot you can do about it. If your mechanically inclined and really want to save some money, look up 0% lowers, this is assuming your time is worth nothing. I hope to do one someday so I can design my own magwell for odd style pistol mags. Tutorial if interested http://www.arlower.ray-vin.com/disclaimer.htm __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed Last edited by skizzums; October 30, 2015 at 04:47 PM.

October 30, 2015, 05:01 PM	#7
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,988	It's always a good idea to have a gun that your friendly government doesn't know about. Clinton, Sanders, Obama and all the liberals really DO want to take your guns away. As far as cost savings, there isn't any. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 30, 2015, 05:57 PM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	If you are fortunate enough to live in one of the 50 states that kind of somewhat still looks like America... a used gun in a private sale is exactly that. Comprises more than half of what I own. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 30, 2015, 06:17 PM	#9
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	My interest wss in the cost savings, not "sneaking" something past the Government. However that really isn't that far fetched of an idea depending on 2016 Sevens, what "Big" store? __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

October 30, 2015, 07:19 PM	#10
skizzums Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2013 Location: Douglasville, Ga Posts: 4,615	Your first post asked "what is required to finish the 20%"?. It's as simple as milling out the shelf at the rear, then widening as you mill out the entire trigger group area, the simply drilling the two holes on the side(trigger and hammer pin) and then the hole for the trigger itself. The buffer tube is already drilled/threaded, magwell is finished(including the bolt stop pin holes etc) and exterior is likely finished. If your okay with polymer lowers, you may want to do one first. The color options can be fun to play with too. But that's really it, look down into your AR lower, and note that only the fire control area, trigger, safety and hammer/trigger pins need to be done, not much work. Here are some pics of my recent polymer, even a bonus where I messed up the trigger hole. Luckily it wad polymer. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ghlight=9mm+ar __________________ My head is bloody, but unbowed

October 30, 2015, 08:07 PM	#11
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Vance's, Columbus OH, three locations. 100% lowers. Aluminum. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 31, 2015, 09:02 AM	#12
barnbwt Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2012 Posts: 1,085	"I love how these 80% lowers play to the tinfoil crowd " Didn't occur to you that some people like making things with tools? I brew my own beer, too, and not because I avoid excise taxes TCB __________________ "I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater

October 31, 2015, 01:07 PM	#13
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Do you buy 80% beer kits and just finish the last little bit? I'm a handloader, I absolutely love the hobby, so yes... I get the crafting angle, but the argument you are bringing? Not the target audience for these 80% lowers. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 31, 2015, 01:33 PM	#14
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Here is a thought: How do you like jail? There was an article in the newspaper this week of a court case (Hazelton, Pa.) where the guy is going away for a long time. It involved converting a gun to automatic and also owning one or several "Drop in" auto sears that were not registered. I would never believe that the Feds do not keep track of this 80% kind of stuff. I have to agree with the others. There is no reason to do it that will not lead to trouble.

October 31, 2015, 02:45 PM	#16
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	http://www.vanceoutdoors.com/products2.cfm/ID/124244 They show a price of $69.99 on their site, but I can tell you from decades of shopping with these guys... brick and mortar is their business, so it doesn't surprise me that they choose NOT to compete with other online dealers. Their original store here goes back to the 1950's (I think?), their second store (huge) on the east side of town has been around more than a decade I believe and their newest location on the south side has been open for about a year and it is a fine destination and includes and indoor range. My buddy has bought seven of these lowers from them and I'm certain that he didn't pay over $55 for the first one and I know that he jumped on the $39ea when buying 5 or more bandwagon the last time they offered it, and it seems like they offer it a few times a year. A quick search on Gunbroker shows that they get offered around $45-$50, but then you pay shipping and FFL. These are made in Kentucky. Not polymer, not 80%, no cutting or drilling or hacking on, just insert your parts and go make noise. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

October 31, 2015, 05:32 PM	#18
Roughedge Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Location: Monroe,NC Posts: 669	I got some to let the grandsons learn on the mill, you should see there face when they shoot something they made. __________________ The man that die's with the most stuff win's!

October 31, 2015, 05:43 PM	#19
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,988	"Here is a thought: How do you like jail? There was an article in the newspaper this week of a court case (Hazelton, Pa.) where the guy is going away for a long time. It involved converting a gun to automatic and also owning one or several "Drop in" auto sears that were not registered. I would never believe that the Feds do not keep track of this 80% kind of stuff. I have to agree with the others. There is no reason to do it that will not lead to trouble." There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about building your own gun. Where do you guys get this stuff? How would "the feds" know about an item that is not regulated under law? Do they keep track of how many toothbrushes are made? No one here said anything about unregistered auto-sears and converting guns to automatic. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 31, 2015, 05:47 PM	#20
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	If you want to "make" your own lower, buy a block of 7075 and have at it. Don't try to make completing an 80% AR lower more than it is. I don't doubt a lot of people on this forum could start with a block of wood and make one. I just saw the post above. No, it is not illegal. But it is a long way from "Building" anything. Makes one wonder why people don't start with a black powder revolver kit. A little much , I guess. Last edited by Gunplummer; October 31, 2015 at 05:55 PM.

October 31, 2015, 06:19 PM	#21
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Bill is correct. There is an older case, too, where a guy was caught making guns and if I recall, silencers, from scratch, and none were registered. He was sent up the creek. The guy had a nice shop, with mills, lathes, the works, and lost it all, including his freedom. It is not worth becoming a felon over.

October 31, 2015, 07:23 PM	#22
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,988	The only items that the law says must be registered are NFA items. Regular firearms can be made all day long- no registration or serial numbers required. You can't make guns for SALE, but you can sell guns you made. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

October 31, 2015, 08:20 PM	#24
O4L Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2015 Posts: 646	To the OP, if you are looking to save money on a lower, there are deals on finished stripped lowers to be found. No need to go the 80% route just to save money. I frequently find lowers for $40-50 online here. slickguns.com

November 1, 2015, 08:47 PM	#25
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Bill, the guy I was mentioning was caught manufacturing and selling them. The BATFE found out about the silencers, first, but later found, after their visit, that he was making firearms and selling to some undesirable folks, too. I can't remember if they were semi or full autos, but they were his design. There was that stink about this and state law, a while back, about manufacturing and selling in state, but not out of state, because it had to do with interstate sales and the UCC. I think 1 or 2 states passed some new laws over it, allowing the manufacture and sales in state. It has been a while now, and I can't remember the details of it all.