My wife was in shooting range of an armed robber. What would you do?

[Thunderhawk88]

MyXD40, based on your posts about how you would handle the situation, and your comments about scenarios in this and other threads, I am sorry to say that I question your maturity to have a firearm.

+1

Take this personally. You are too gung-ho for your own good. Self defense is exactly that. The delusions of grandeur that you will be the hero and save the day could get you arrested, sued, or possibly killed. In the situation that the OP described, the guy had a rifle. Generally, a rifle has more firepower than YourXD40. I could only describe engaging such a threat as an excersise in futility. Do the SMART thing. Call the cops. They get paid to put themselves in harm's way. The average joe with a CCW permit does not. Take a chill pill Rambo.

+1000

[glockman19]

What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger?

Stayed in the Denstist office wiht door locked until either teh guy left or police arrived.

I would ONLY shoot someone if my life or the lives of my immediate family or people directly around me were in iminent danger. by staying in the safety of an office I would look to be a good witness for teh police with disctiption of perp and vehicle.

[Tanzer]

Glockman,
I agree, but that's been well established. In response #20, the OP switches the question;

So then the question becomes, in what situation would action be taken. If you were in a hostage situtation? Would you wait until someone was shot first and then act? If you are in the store and you hear gun shots a few isles over do you run for cover while others get shot or do you "Jack Bauer" it? Not that it would be like 24 but just curious to what the gut reaction would be.

[Tim Burke]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

The police generally come on a scene after it's well underway and have to make an immediate assessment of the threat while armed citizens tend to be on the scene from the beginning and know what's going on.
But if we, as armed citizens, choose to insert ourselves into the middle of such scenes we put ourselves in the same situation of having to make snap assessments of threat-

An excellent point, and, it's worth noting, one that cuts both ways. Not only do you have to sort out the situation when you insert yourself into it, now the responding officers have to sort you out when they show up. It isn't unheard of for off-duty police to get shot by the responding officers.

[ZeroJunk]

Post #20 is 180 degrees from OP.If you are in a hostage situation and you have a clean shot,I think you have a reasonable right to take it.If the criminal is leaving the scene and doesn't necessarily even notice you or imminently threaten anybody,then you do not.

Unless you are Matt Dillon and want to call the guy out so he can draw down on you before you act,which is a good way to keep your genes from being passed down the line.

[JohnMcD348]

Complete Monday morning Quarterbacking here. If it was possible and I was closer to the car than the door of the dentists office, I would have gotten my family into the car and put as much distance between the incident and my family as possible while calling 911 and reporting the situation. If closer to the front door of the dentists office, I would have taken them back inside and demanded they lock the doors while I called 911 and gotten every living sole out of the area of any windows or exposed areas within site.

Had shots been fired and no other protetive service was within site or on scene and I was armed and resonably within realistci ranges. I may have placed my family back into the office and layed in an appropriate( or as much as possible) ambush site to be able to kill the fellons when they exited the building. And yes, I would have had every intention of killing them, not ordering them to put down the weapons they held, no second chances or discussions of whether they intended on causing anyone any real harm.

But that's just me. No hero here.

[Thunderhawk88]

Charging in and popping off a few rounds in the general direction of the evildoer might make things go sideways.

Then again, one or two well-placed rounds by a citizen would have changed the outcome in numerous situations, such as the tragedies of Luby's, Columbine and Virginia Tech.

Those are different situations than the OP. In those situations, before anyone realized what was going on, shots were fired and innocent people were down. In that case then yeas, maybe you should do something to end it.

[rampage841512]

Had I been in your wife's situation, once re-entering the dentist's office to call the police I wouldn't have left. I'd have stayed inside with the kids, making sure the door was locked and staying down. If I'd have been caught outside I don't know what I'd have done. It would have depended on this guy's actions as he came out.

[Hardtarget]

Tanzer in post 14 had it right. The dentist should have LOCKED THE DOOR!. I don't think going back out into the parking lot is a good idea. What if his getaway does not start? There she is...hostages and keys and a different vehicle. Not good at all.

Mark.

[Tanzer]

Had shots been fired and no other protetive service was within site or on scene and I was armed and resonably within realistci ranges. I may have placed my family back into the office and layed in an appropriate( or as much as possible) ambush site to be able to kill the fellons when they exited the building. And yes, I would have had every intention of killing them, not ordering them to put down the weapons they held, no second chances or discussions of whether they intended on causing anyone any real harm.

Shots were fired - you have no idea if anyone was hit, and you can't even be sure it was the BG. What if an undercover cop was in there? What if he put a round in the ceiling to prove his desperation? What if you shoot and the UC guy picks you out as his accomplaice?
Don't get me wrong, I don't feel bad for him, but now you're tied up with the DA for being a vigilante, or being reported as a threat via radio or telephone.

[SeanShot]

Two things could've gone down in my opinion.

1) Either he leaves without firing or there's kids nearby.
1a) I'd try and get away with the kids and call the cops. If he doesn't fire a shot then you shouldn't initiate a gunfight.

2) He runs out of the store guns blazing, no kids nearby.
2a) I wouldn't recommend it, but if he's on a killing spree and you've got your rifle nearby, you might take up position in a bush and try and hit him in the leg. But you've got to remember that bullets don't stop. You could accidentally kill someone in a tanning salon if you miss, or even if you hit.

Simply: I think that the only time you should take a shot is if there is no one nearby (or that you're a guardian or parent of) that needs help or is unable to get away themselves or if the shooter is already attacking people with the intent to kill.

[03Shadowbob]

2a) I wouldn't recommend it, but if he's on a killing spree and you've got your rifle nearby, you might take up position in a bush and try and hit him in the leg.

Real bad advice here. Why would you shoot at a target that would be constantly moving and be 50-75% smaller than COM? If you shoot, you shoot to end the threat and a leg shot more than likely will not end the threat.

[threegun]

..hey..psst..those people over there..you don't know them, but someone loves them too..thats someones wife..o0 thats someones grandpa..theres your next door neighbors grandson..someones brother! o0 theres homeless right there..hehe has has pet flies!

Folks have a duty to protect themselves. That wife should be able to protect herself. Her husband should be able to protect them both. Point is I don't have a duty to defend others.

That said if I can help without endangering my family or other civilians I will. More likely though is helping others by defending mine.

[Musketeer]

Tim Burke said:

Go back into the dentist's office.
Call the police.
Lock the door.
Wait for police to secure the scene to leave.
Do not stand around gawking.

BINGO!!! Alternatively, if I was already at the car when I saw this happenning I would throw the kids in the car, kids seats or not! and getsome distance away. Then buckle them up and call the police.

I can't see why she would leave the office and re-enter the parking lot when there is an almost 100% chance the criminal was going to go back into the lot after finishing the robberry. Sorry, but she made a big mistake there. Better to hunker down at the back of the office and make certain of a back door incase the criminal came to the front, now locked, one. Going back into the lot put her in close proximity and sight line of the criminal. Bad Move.

Sorry but I am not doing a Rambo with or without my kids present. The gun is there to save me, this is America and let others exercise their rights to save themselves. Sorry but nobody is going to pay to raise my kids if I buy it nor are they going to cover my legal fees. Until that happens and somebody else cares to accept my responsiblities then they have no grounds expecting me to risk my life and family's well being.

[Musketeer]

2a) I wouldn't recommend it, but if he's on a killing spree and you've got your rifle nearby, you might take up position in a bush and try and hit him in the leg.

Stop watching Lethal Weapon movies NOW. Seriously, you need to learn more about the judicious use of lethal force. I would start with something like "The Truth About Self Protection" by Ayoob. There are too many reasons to list why this suggestion was bad.

[SeanShot]

Stop watching Lethal Weapon movies NOW. Seriously, you need to learn more about the judicious use of lethal force. I would start with something like "The Truth About Self Protection" by Ayoob. There are too many reasons to list why this suggestion was bad.

Yeah, I figured after posting that was a horrible idea. I heard two days ago someone say "we live in a world where pizza gets to your house faster than the police", and...
My bad.

[Musketeer]

SeanShot,

No problem. There is a lot more to the proper use of lethal force than what most people in this nation comprehend. People are conditioned to believe whatever clap trap Hollywood puts out, like Danny Glover shooting the guy in the leg in LW1 so they could question him. There are very few movies out there where lethal force is used in a proper manner and the information gained from the garbage can cause far more harm than good.

At the same time inside almost all of us is the desire to stand up tot he criminals in this world. Stop them in their tracks and teach them a lesson. It is a natural desire for any person with a concern for his fellow man and society. We live in a world though where that type of action conducted by a private citizen can put you in a world of hurt.

If one wishes to place themselves into a third party encounter in order to "do good" I am not going to ell them they can't. I do want them to understand all the reprecussions of their actions though and know that unlike an LEO who stands up to a criminal and uses lethal force you are going to have no City or Police Union to back you up legally, morally and financially.

[Tanzer]

No problem. There is a lot more to the proper use of lethal force than what most people in this nation comprehend. People are conditioned to believe whatever clap trap Hollywood puts out, like Danny Glover shooting the guy in the leg in LW1 so they could question him. There are very few movies out there where lethal force is used in a proper manner and the information gained from the garbage can cause far more harm than good.

Well said Musketeer. My wife was a serious anti-gunner when she met me, but tolerated me ('cuz I'm so darn cute). She went to the club with me a few times, put the kids in JR. rifle league, but most of all, had the good sense to observe. I didn't prostelitize, SHE caught on. To this day, she has trouble believing she was so easily "duped" by Hollywood, friends, and the media.
She is now a proud Glock owner I'll have to work on that, but hey, it's HER weapon of choice.

[Groundhog]

I didn't bother to read page 2 of this but I saw that the usual Rambo vs. pacifist arguments got successfully started. Good job. Other than a little tactical tinkering, this one is silly and you'd think a no brainer (silly me there).

My wife was leaving the dentist office with both of our kids. When she stepped out she saw a man with a red bandana mask run inside the drug store next door. His car was parked right in front of the door. She wasn't sure what she had seen because it had happened really quickly. She went back into the dentist. They called the police and the pharmacist of the store. For some reason my wife was standing outside to see what was going on. The dentist said she should go ahead and leave and not hang out in case the guy comes out. So on the way to the car, with the kids, the guys comes out and he has a rifle. My wife is scrambling to get the kids in the car but totally exposed.

Brief tactical analysis of the above. All good until she went back outside. Lock down in dental office would have been best, but glad it worked out OK.

So my questions are this. What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger?

Barricade inside drug store or GTHOD in the least exposed manner possible.

If you heard shots inside the drug store would it change your action?

No

Also, do you believe it is right (legally or not) for a community to defend itself against thugs even to the point of stopping with force? Or should we just leave crimes alone and let the police handle it?

Sure it's right for a community to defend itself that way, BUT, it is probably not the wisest thing to do in very many situations.

This situation should have been a no brainer unless you actually hate you kids and have a desire to see them killed. And if you do, I hope to God you don't ever have any kids. YOU GOT YOUR KIDS WITH YOU FOR GOODNESS SAKES!!! Who in their right mind is NOT going to do everything they can to ensure their kids safety first? As always, every situation is different but as spelled out by the OP, it makes no sense in this one to do anything other than get your kids out of harms way first and foremost. I'd say even making sure they were safe prior to calling 911 unless it was easily accomplished at the same time (I'd be darned if I'm going to fumble for my phone while dealing with a tactical situation).

[Socrates]

Living in Kali, I always comfort myself in dangerous situations with the fact that the reason I'm armed, and the rest of the sheep aren't is THEY voted to be unarmed sheep. Therefore, if
the bad guy has a rifle, the only way I'm shooting back is if the rifle becomes aimed in my direction, and, I have solid cover. If the guys smart enough to bring a rifle to a gunfight, he's likely smart enough to possibly be wearing a vest. I sure would. So much for those COM hits...

So, you have a loose loose situation. If you protect someone else, you are likely to be sued, or shot, for an ungrateful sheep, that will likely turn on you in a second in court, blaming you for causing the gunfire. You could also be on the hook for starting fire, and, since that's a criminal
action in my case, since we don't have CCW permits in my city, at least not for the last 33 years, I might well be both criminally and civilly liable for any harm done by the fleeing felons bullets, as well as my own...

I'd just love to be interviewed right after such a situation on Channel 4 Vic Lee news and say the above, and, that yes, I was armed with a 357, but, due to the voters of San Francisco's position on firearms, I let the guy shoot 6 people, since he wasn't shooting at me...

Serves the bastards right...

S esq.

[CrazyIvan007]

Yarborg,

In response to your original post:

It is a shame that it took such an incident to enlighten your sense of danger in your community. But, it is a good thing that you did not continue on blindly following a belief of "it couldn't happen to me."

To give a bit of an idea of law...we are granted the ability to engage in force against anyone who is inflicting unwarranted harm against another or against someone you believe may be about to commit unwarranted harm against you or another...to defend yourself or come to the aid of another who is in danger basically. So, should a person choose to engage the assailant, it would be within the law, but it may not be the best choice, in my opinion.

Should a person decide to engage the offender, I will warn you: Just be sure who you are engaging. Your wife saw what led up to the situation, so this is a bit different. But, if you walked into the store and saw the guy pointing a gun at the pregnant woman...what is to say the pregnant woman wasn't robbing the store and another CCW holder came to stop the robbery? You can not always paint a stereotypical picture against an incident, though many times it does appear to be a no-brainer, and many times it is. But there is a certain percentage of misinterpretation that can take place.

Now, to answer your question...were I in your wife's shoes, my children would have been my first priority. I would have taken them back into the dentist's office and told him to lock the door behind me after briefly telling him what was going on. I would then take my children to the farthest corner away from where the incident was taking place. I would make no effort to engage the assailant whatsoever. If the dentist refused to lock the door, I would take the children out the back and run the opposite direction with them in front of me. But, I am pretty sure he would comply given the situation. Call the police. If I had a CCW, I would try to hide my children in a closet, telling them to get onto the ground and remain silent. Even if I didn't have a CCW, I would try to do that. I would take a non-line-of-fire position between them and the entrance to the dentist's office and be ready if he were to enter. You basically want to create a triangle between your children, the assailant and you. If the person comes into the office where you are, it should be your perogative to distract the assailants attention from the direction of the children. If you can not get the children into a hidden location, I would have them lay on the floor and position myself in front of them. Definitely keep them and yourself away from windows.

Now, if I didn't have children with me...I may react differently.

You have to take past instances into account. Some robberies of strip mall-type stores result in the assailant robbing more than one of those stores. They may quickly work their way down, getting in 3 stores before leaving.

You definitely don't want to go out in the parking lot where the offenders car is located. Not only may he shoot you, but the store owner of the place he was just in may come out shooting at the assailant. You or your kids may find yourself in the line of fire, either between the 2 shooting or behind one or the other.

If you can avoid going out anywhere in the open, that is good.

The best short-term defense against a single or a few armed attackers is to barricade yourself and create a defensive position.

This is all written out and seems like a long process. But, it would be my immediate reaction and would take as little as 10 seconds to follow through with.

[SeanShot]

Musketeer,

I did a bit of thinking on it and realized that the law is more on the side of the offender. You could "do good", then get boned by the system. And then, of course, there's the police not wanting to get extra civilians involved.

[kentak]

Get the kids out of harm's reach, then MAYBE try to intervene while he's outside and away from other people, drawing her gun on him and telling him to give up. But that's purely on opportunity. Have the ability to be in control of what happens to you and then read the situation from there.

Insanity! Pure insanity! She should risk her life to do a law enforcement officer's job when she could get her kids and herself out of harm's way?

Her primary obligation is 1) get the kids out of harm's way, and 2) get herself out of harm's way so the kids still have a living mother!

Sometimes I just have to shake my head.

K

[Yellowfin]

Be sure to tell your wife that when someone else's wife could save her that they shouldn't.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Could you parse that?

My wife should save herself and the kids. I would tell her that I would expect some other mom to act the same way. I don't think most of us expect someone's elses spouse to sacrifice themselves and the kids for us.

This is getting to be quite a silly thread. Chest pounders vs. realists. Obviously the former think that they are paragons of moral virtue and the others are immoral scum to suggest that a spouse save themselves and the kids.

I suppose such paragons of virtue live a pauper's life and donate all excess money to poor kids who need health care.