My wife was in shooting range of an armed robber. What would you do?

[yarborg]

This little incident caused me to get serious about owning a gun. Happend about 2 months ago and since then I have been playing the situation over in my head and learning a lot about guns.

My wife was leaving the dentist office with both of our kids. When she stepped out she saw a man with a red bandana mask run inside the drug store next door. His car was parked right in front of the door. She wasn't sure what she had seen because it had happened really quickly. She went back into the dentist. They called the police and the pharmacist of the store. For some reason my wife was standing outside to see what was going on. The dentist said she should go ahead and leave and not hang out in case the guy comes out. So on the way to the car, with the kids, the guys comes out and he has a rifle. My wife is scrambling to get the kids in the car but totally exposed.

Thank God the guy didn't do any harm but certainly he could have. We found out later that he had robbed the place and held a pregnant woman at gunpoint to do it.

So my questions are this. What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger? If you heard shots inside the drug store would it change your action? Also, do you believe it is right (legally or not) for a community to defend itself against thugs even to the point of stopping with force? Or should we just leave crimes alone and let the police handle it?

[Fremmer]

What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger?

I would have put the kids in the car, removed myself and my kids from the immediate area, and immediately call the police.

Uh-oh. That's not a very tactical solution, is it? O.K., we'll do the mall-ninja solution:

She should have put the kids in the car, grabbed the AK that she keeps in the trunk, and taken a tactical position outside of the store that the gunman had entered. When he exited, she should have confronted him, told him to drop his weapon, and commanded him to lie down on the ground. Gunfight if necessary.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I think she did just fine, other than not leaving the area with the kids right away. She's a mom with kids, and the safety of the kids are her first priority. To me, it doesn't matter how much firepower she had on her person or in her car; she certainly shouldn't have confronted the guy. JMHO.

[doncameron]

Get myself and the children out of the area (if the car was exposed , walk in the other direction and put as much STUFF between us and the bad guy),
call 911.

[Yellowfin]

Get the kids out of harm's reach, then MAYBE try to intervene while he's outside and away from other people, drawing her gun on him and telling him to give up. But that's purely on opportunity. Have the ability to be in control of what happens to you and then read the situation from there.

[cabbynate]

Assuming you live in America she did all she could have done AK or not. The safety of the kids is first. Had it of been me alone........ I hate to admit
I would have done the same thing. Even with an HK MP5 in hand. Why? Because if I would have engaged this robber and injured/killed him all the sudden I'm the bad guy. I may win in Justice court but I will lose in civil court. This is America. Land of the free were the criminals have more rights than the good citizen. Sorry to here this all happened. I hope it did not traumatize you wife in any way but somehow I dough it.

[Tim Burke]

My wife hasn't been to Thunder Ranch, Gunsite or any other training execpt for an InSights Unarmed Self Defense class.. I'd suggest the appropriate course of action is:

• Go back into the dentist's office.
• Call the police.
• Lock the door.
• Wait for police to secure the scene to leave.
• Do not stand around gawking.

Which is pretty much what I would have done, and I have been trained.

[yarborg]

I think cabbynate hit what I was thinking about as well. Unless you personally are under immediate harm or someone else's life is in immediate danger the current legal system doesn't really help us out. That's what's frustrating about this and so many other problems. I remember a story about a lady in California (I think) who took the law into her own hands. Killed a drug dealer in her neighborhood after the police didn't do anything about it. I don't know the legal ramifications but I supported her action.

Anyhow, many times I think less about protecting myself and more about protecting others. So few people are armed or would be willing to jump into a dangerous situation to help someone else out. I would hate to not do so at the fear of the courts.

[Epyon]

That going up against people not on your property is such a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. When is it actually right to fight someone who's a danger publicly and to you as well if you're within his shooting range? I know the answer is if he's already got his eye on you, take action if needed, but then again, it's that whole action/reaction curve. Reaction is always slower than action.


Epyon

[M14fan]

I would not have gone back outside to get in the car once she and the kids were inside the dentists office. Lock up the Dentists office and call 911. It is not cowardly to remove your children from the area or to barricade them in an office. If there were no shots fired, the very best think she can do is try to give a good description to police.

Shots fired? Shots fired simply insures that I am going to secure whatever firepower I have at my disposal and continue to protect the defensive position I have taken with my children. I do not have a swat team to back me up and am not going to jeopardize the safety of my children by engaging an unknown hostile single handedly. Without the presence of my loved ones I am much more comfortable with more aggressive actions and have taken aggressive actions successfully in the past (though those did not involve firearms for me or the perp).

I believe that communities absolutely have the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately, most do not have the training, tools, or expertise to do so successfully.

[cabbynate]

That going up against people not on your property is such a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

Even than you will still end up in civil court getting sued by the bad guy's wife/mother/father/kids/girlfriend/best friend. I'm luck in that I don't have much to loose so most attorney's would not even take my case. As long as I could win in justice court/not go to jail it would be just another bad bay for the bad guy and I like it this way........

[ZeroJunk]

Anybody outside of law enforcement who wants to interject in that situation is nuts.Much less think their wife should.Unless, of course,you are tired of your wife.

[Tanzer]

She went back into the dentist

The dentist said she should go ahead and leave and not hang out in case the guy comes out.

Dentist; "You should go ahead and leave".
Wife; "What? have you been sniffin' your laughing gas? You'll have to call the cops to get me out, and they're not coming here until after they take care of things next door! Then I'll leave before they even bother getting over here, you nut. Hey, you behind the desk.. LOCK THAT DOOR!, Is there a back way out of here? I don't care if it's your records room, sue me!"

Hmm.... How did she not see the rifle on his way in??

[MyXD40]

for the situation I think it was fine.

Me personaly, I would have waited for the fool outside the store behind some cover if any and prevent him from getting into his car. Possibly if he had his window down, take keys out of it. If he didn't have a gun I'm sure he wouldnt want to be shot by me. If he did have a gun, at least I have both hands and able to shoot my gun, against his heavy bank bag in one, trying to fire a riffle with the other.

Like any situation I feel if I can safely prevent any further issues to come up, I'll put my life at risk. Rather have this scum bag kill me (and waste time) than to get away and possibly kill a person or more in the furture.

[Tanzer]

So my questions are this. What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger? If you heard shots inside the drug store would it change your action? Also, do you believe it is right (legally or not) for a community to defend itself against thugs even to the point of stopping with force? Or should we just leave crimes alone and let the police handle it?

A CWP does not make you a deputy. What if you shot an off-duty cop who was responding, thinking it was an accomplaice? You will find throughout the archives that 99.5% of the time, LE wants everyone out of the way. The last thing they want is to show up to find some jacka** jumping from one parked car to another with a weapon drawn. Your CWP allows you the means to protect you & your's against an imminent threat, having no other choice.
Sweep an entire store with a carry piece? I don't think Dirty Harry would think that's a good idea.
You're not "leaving crimes alone" a quick vehicle/personal description will suffice for a team trained to handle such things.
Is it right to defend the community? Without formal training and backup the likelihood is that you will do more harm than good. That's not defending anyone - what about his hostage? The guy wants drugs, not blood. If he can get his fix and be gone, let the cops handle it. Show up with a gun and he's more likely to use his. In the case of a rifle, he can do a lot of damage.

[Tanzer]

My XD,
You posted before I posted my Jacka** comment in. It was not directed at you.

[MyXD40]

no worries.

Plus I know most will disagree with my actions, but the way I see it, is that guy could get away, get cought up in a high speed chase, then at the end of the chase, he T-bones your wifes car, driver side, throwing her in the hospital with some serious injurys. Not saying that will happen, but it could.

[gvf]

We all have the right of SD when faced immediately with a lethal attack - and in situations where another is - (not looks like, but IS) - imminently about to be killed , anyone can intervene. At least in NY and I believe most if not all states: that is the SD Justification for Homicide and has nothing to say about how you defend. Nothing about guns period - or any particular means or method of SD.

Then you have Gun/Weapons Law which deals with how and under what conditions - and if - handguns can be purchased, carried, kept on the premises etc. That law does not refer whatsoever to using them to shoot.

The two don't go together. That means you're right to carry gives you no additional rights in SD than someone who never saw a gun. We're just like everyone else.


Keeping that in mind, sounds like the advice to go to safety and call 911 in such a situation as you saw was correct.

In this case, intervening could cause a potentially fleeing suspect to stay, take hostages, shoot you, shoot your kids. This situation has SWAT and COPS written all over it. Our task is to get the H out of the way so they can do their business effectively.

[Thunderhawk88]

So my questions are this. What would you have done had you been in my wifes situation and armed with your carry or had time to go to your vehicle to get something larger?

IMO, Tim Burke had the best course of action. Go back into the Dental office, notify LEO, lock the doors and wait until the Police secure the area.
Trying to apprehend the BG is not self defense, that is someone trying to be a LEO without a badge.

[MikeG]

I agree with those who said she should shelter in the dentist's office until it was over. In any event the proper course of action for her was to seek safety, and not go Hollywood and try to take out the bad guy(s). This is even more imperative since she had the kids with her.

[yarborg]

I wasn't thinking about what she would do in the situation. More like what I or someone with more training would do. If you go and pull the keys out of the car or have a stand off there is a good chance that he would run back into the store and take hostages as already mentioned. I just know a lot of these cases go unsolved. Same with bank robberies. I work for a bank and know that many of the criminals are not caught. The bank doesn't care because they have insurance...and truth be told it's petty cash to them. I hate to see justice not served.

So then the question becomes, in what situation would action be taken. If you were in a hostage situtation? Would you wait until someone was shot first and then act? If you are in the store and you hear gun shots a few isles over do you run for cover while others get shot or do you "Jack Bauer" it? Not that it would be like 24 but just curious to what the gut reaction would be.

[MyXD40]

Everyone should know my reaction. I'm not scared like some. And I know that this guy is hurting someone, who COULD be my brother, sister, wifey, father..

[ronto]

Take the kids and yourself to a secure area, call the police, and be a good witness (BG description, car license #, etc.). If he starts shooting at people, take him out.

[MyXD40]

I guess it's always better to let the BG shoot possibly kill someone before you feel you need to shoot possibly kill him

[Glenn E. Meyer]

1. Tim's right. We've been through the same FOF.

2. The dentist was an idiot.

3. I suspect those who want to start the gunfight haven't really thought it through, been trained, want to be seen as as the hero later and groove on killing someone (in fantasy). Describing rational posters as scared is very indicative of my analysis.

4. You want to minimize immediate threats to life. Later hypotheticals are just projection and rationalization for starting the gun fight.

[MyXD40]

it's easy to say you were walking into the drug store, oh no! a dude with a gun! EEK!