Single Action: Jammed Beyond Repair

[mehavey]

That jacket looks suspicious to me. There should be no hole in the jacket at the base.

No that's the standard design of an FMJ (full metal jacket): Open Base.

(TMJ (Total Metal Jacket on the other hand is completely covered)
See http://www.concealedcarry-ccw.com/wp...FMJ-vs-TMJ.jpg

Do us a favor a post a pic of the ammo box to see exactly what we're dealing with here.

[TailGator]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I am not a SA guy:

What is wrong with loading six rounds at the range and shooting immediately? I can understand the practice of loading five for carry, but I don't get why you would do that at the firing line.

[SIGSHR]

Five rounds is sort of the standard for target shooting, Bullseye/2700 is shot in five round strings. Loading an original style SAA with six rounds-not a good idea, can lead to bad habits.

[Bob Wright]

No that's the standard design of an FMJ (full metal jacket): Open Base.

You are correct if that was truly FMJ. Since the lead had exited through the nose, I was assuming either jacketed soft point or jacketed hollow point.

Bob Wright

[mehavey]

If it's actually a jacketed hollow point w/ an open base...
Oooh Oooh Tudy. Baaaaad JuJu
Big time.

[shootniron]

That's why I like the transfer bar in my SA Ruger

I like my Ruger's, too...but, I LOVE my Colt clones.

You just can't make a Ruger handle as well...and I am including my New Vaquero's in this...clones just handle better.

[Bob Wright]

What is wrong with loading six rounds at the range and shooting immediately? I can understand the practice of loading five for carry, but I don't get why you would do that at the firing line.

Because there are fifty rounds of ammunition in a box of handgun cartridges, except for those funny little boxes of specialty cartridges.

This makes ten rows of five cartridges. Loading five at a time makes the box of remaining cartridges look neater, and provides ten equal strings of fire. Loading six leaves one with two extra rounds, which makes one seem disorganized.

Should you not fire all fifty rounds, leave a row of live cartridges at each end of the box. This makes stacking your ammo neater without crushing the box.

(When you have to explain the obvious..............)



Bob Wright

[oldcabin]

I agree, one must not leave rounds left in the box. Simply not allowed. Sometimes you may have to go through several hundred more rounds before you finish a box completely. " I had to stay untill my magazine and ammo box were both empty at the same time" is completely normal. I shoot regularly at Obsessive Compulsive night at the local range. Sometimes we are there all night. no problem.

[jad0110]

Because there are fifty rounds of ammunition in a box of handgun cartridges, except for those funny little boxes of specialty cartridges.

We have a winner!

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I am not a SA guy:

What is wrong with loading six rounds at the range and shooting immediately? I can understand the practice of loading five for carry, but I don't get why you would do that at the firing line.

Hickok45 does a video why not to load six, this is a VERY informative video for anyone not having a firm grasp on this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldHPNnsp-cs

it takes VERY little pressure on the hammer to fire a round. And I confirmed it myself with a .22 LR Heritage Rough Rider.

If between loading and firing you fumble and drop the gun, it is very feasible that even it if drops a couple feet onto your loading table, it could fire. Even if the bullet doesn't strike you, it isn't likely to be traveling in a safe direction. I know, it's not likely that you are going to drop it, but over a lifetime of shooting the risk adds up.

So that's why many of us only load 5 in the authentic clones, or any gun that doesn't have a positive hammer block or transfer bar of some form.

Stay safe and have fun .

[jackstrawIII]

If it's actually a jacketed hollow point w/ an open base...
Oooh Oooh Tudy. Baaaaad JuJu
Big time.

Could we get a little elaboration on this?

Regarding details with the ammo, here's what I can tell you. It's Federal brand (either Federal or Estate, both are owned by Fed and use Fed brass) FMJ 38 SPL ammo. Besides that, I can't help as I no longer have the box. I often will dump ammo out of the factory boxes and into plastic jars with screw on lids, combining different brands of ammo to use for range fodder. They fit really nicely in my range bag and store/stack more efficiently.

All that to say, figuring out the exact ammo lot number or whatever is not possible. I've owned this particular lot of ammo for probably 5 years. As I said, I'm not much of a revolver guy.

I'm very curious to see if I get this particular failure again. If I do, and the jacket is smushed on one side like this one was, I'm going to assume it's a gun problem and send it back to Taylors/Uberti. I really hope it doesn't come to that, as it's a really cool cool cool gun.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Although Hickock 45 always makes good videos, he does not actually show you the procedure for loading five in a single action revolver with the old Colt type action. I was hoping he would, but he doesn't.

It's very simple. With the hammer at half cock for the loading position, load one chamber, then advance the cylinder so one empty chamber rotates past the loading gate. Then load four more. Now, with the hammer still at half cock, and making sure the cylinder has not advanced at all, cock the hammer all the way, then gently lower it down. If you did it right, the hammer will be resting on an empty chamber.

Load one, skip one, load four more, full cock, then lower the hammer down.

This should be practiced until it is second nature.

That's why I like the transfer bar in my SA Ruger

Well, I have Rugers with transfer bars too. In fact I bought my New Model Blackhawk probably 30 years before I bought a more traditional single action revolver. But as soon as I did, and started shooting CAS regularly, I learned the proper way to load a single action revolver with just five rounds.

Let's review.

Load one, skip one, load four more, cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.

Unless you are shooting a Merwin Hulbert. The loading gate is in a different position on these, so you load two, skip one, load three more, cock the hammer then lower it on the empty chamber.





But for a Colt or clone, load one, skip one, load four more, cock the hammer and lower it on the empty chamber.

[mehavey]

this particular failure again. If I do, and the jacket is smushed
on one side like this one was, I'm going to assume it's a gun...

Before coming to that conclusion, cock the hammer fully, shine a strong flashlight into the firing pin channel, and look down the barrel.

Any (and it would have to be significant) misalignment of the barrel/cylinder will show up immediately. (`Just did it on my own 44-40/45 Colt Smokewagons)

Looking at failure mode, and what it left in the case, I'm thinking gross ammunition failure.

[TailGator]

Thanks for the replies to my question, fellas. Informative and entertaining.

Mr. Wright, I reload and have big stacks of plastic boxes that don't crush, but I pledge to load five at a time if I ever get a SA revolver, in honor of you. And seriously, the safety aspect and other reasons make sense. Thanks.

[James K]

I am always willing to be instructed by experts. If the reason for loading five in a SA is to make a box of 50 come out even, I have been mistaken in loading my 686 (and K-38, Colt PP, etc., etc.) with six. I always have two rounds left over, which I now see is wrong.

Loading a Colt style SA (and some old DA revolvers) with five makes sense for safety reasons; for the new Ruger SA's and revolvers like the S&W 686, it makes little sense except to satisfy the old "5 beans in the can" stuff Colt's "mad men" came up with to try to get idjits to practice simple safety with an SA revolver.

Jim

[Bob Wright]

One more post regarding loading of five rounds. Old bullseye pistol matches called for five shot strings in both timed and rapid fire. Six holes in a target had the highest scoring shot deducted.

Revolvers were loaded with five rounds in the cylinder, auto pistols had five rounds in the magazine. At the "ready" command, the revolvers could be cocked for single action fire, the autos could allow the slide to go forward to chamber the round and leave the hammer cocked.

In that day a few shooters, especially women, fired the J- Framed (or I-Framed) Smith & Wessons which held only five rounds, and these were permitted to be fully loaded.

These were range rules only during matches sanctioned by the NRA or USRA and enforced. Informal practice there was no restriction, but common range protocol dictated loading only five. Now with auto pistols and some revolvers holding umpteen cartridges, covering fire seems to be the rule of the day.

Bob Wright

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by jackstrawIII

Regarding details with the ammo, here's what I can tell you. It's Federal brand (either Federal or Estate, both are owned by Fed and use Fed brass) FMJ 38 SPL ammo. Besides that, I can't help as I no longer have the box.

Do you have any more of the same ammo? If so, can you post a close-up photo of the headstamp, and one of the bullet? If you happen to have an inertia bullet puller, would you be willing to drop one bullet out of the cartidge and take a photo of the base of the bullet?

I'm very curious to see if I get this particular failure again. If I do, and the jacket is smushed on one side like this one was, I'm going to assume it's a gun problem and send it back to Taylors/Uberti. I really hope it doesn't come to that, as it's a really cool cool cool gun.

That was NOT a gun problem. That was an ammunition problem.

[Jim Watson]

Load one, skip one, load four more, full cock, then lower the hammer down.

I read this from Skeeter Skelton a long time ago. And it is really convenient if your gun is clean and your ammo is perfect.
After watching some CAS experts at work, I formed the habit of inserting five rounds any old way, rolling the cylinder to be sure I did not have a high primer, burred rim, bulged case, etc etc that would drag on cylinder rotation. Then bringing the empty next to the hammer, cock and uncock.

[Carmady]

"Although Hickock 45 always makes good videos, he does not actually show you the procedure for loading five in a single action revolver with the old Colt type action. I was hoping he would, but he doesn't."

This? It starts around 3:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dp52zvKdxLg

[Jim Watson]

I am always willing to be instructed by experts. If the reason for loading five in a SA is to make a box of 50 come out even, I have been mistaken in loading my 686 (and K-38, Colt PP, etc., etc.) with six. I always have two rounds left over, which I now see is wrong.

The old 3D commercial reloading company packed .38s in 60 round boxes.
Not so much so it would come out even on cylinder fulls but because the original PPC police qualifier was 60 rounds.

[Driftwood Johnson]

This? It starts around 3:45

Yes. That's the ticket.

By the way, he got all the dates correct in that video.

[jackmoser65]

And it is really convenient if your gun is clean and your ammo is perfect.

I do it that way every time and my guns are usually filthy.

[Driftwood Johnson]

I shoot Black Powder in my Colts.

They are usually filthy after the first round.

Does not make any difference.

Load one, skip one, load four more, cock the hammer all the way back and lower it onto an empty chamber.

PRACTICE THIS A BUNCH OF TIMES TO MAKE SURE YOU GET IT RIGHT!!!!!

[44 AMP]

stuff Colt's "mad men" came up with to try to get idjits to practice simple safety with an SA revolver.

Simple safety is something that has evolved over time. Carrying with an empty chamber under the hammer is something that developed due to the Colt SAA, and was something "new" people had to learn, and many never did.

Colt's cap&ball pistols can be carried loaded with six, because when the hammer is down in the "safety" position, its is between the nipples.

Early on, Colt called the first "click" position of the SAA the "safety notch" and did advise people it was a safe way to carry the gun. As far as I can tell, they STOPPED doing that after a little while, and only recommended an empty chamber under the hammer.

Why did so many of the old time cowboys limp???
Because they had "Colt leg"..

Happened A LOT, when the SAA was loaded with six. Toss the stirrup up on the saddle so you can cinch up the saddle girth strap, horse shifts, stirrup slides down, hits holstered pistol on the hammer, gun FIRES!!!!
(usually hitting the leg or foot)

Colt leg

Can't happen if there is an empty chamber under the hammer.

[Bob Wright]

I know I've been crowing about this Open Top of late, but I've found two advantages in this style.



1. Without a top strap, its very easy to index the empty chamber under the hammer.

2. The shape of the barrel stub directs powder residue and lube forward, keeping the cylinder, and my hands, cleaner.


Bob Wright

[Carmady]

"Happened A LOT, when the SAA was loaded with six. Toss the stirrup up on the saddle so you can cinch up the saddle girth strap, horse shifts, stirrup slides down, hits holstered pistol on the hammer, gun FIRES!!!!
(usually hitting the leg or foot)

Colt leg"

I wonder if Chester on Gunsmoke had Colt leg.