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Old March 31, 2020, 11:42 PM   #1
veprdude
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Winchester 223 45 gr HP good for self defense?

I got a bunch of what I believe to be 45gr Winchester 223 ammo from a random ammo can I bought a few years back at $.20/rd. Headstamp "Winchester 223 REM". The HP looks like their 45 gr Varmint round.

Good for self defense around the house or leave it for the prairie dogs?
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Old April 1, 2020, 01:15 PM   #2
jrothWA
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Suggest you use, the 45 grs., for natural varmints, for Home Defense, try the Win 64gr PP.
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Old April 1, 2020, 01:34 PM   #3
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I sure wouldn’t want to get shot by it. It’s probably not the “best” for home defense, but if your gun shoots it reliably and accurately then I don’t see any reason not to use it.
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Old April 2, 2020, 05:39 AM   #4
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Those light varmint rounds are likely not going to give adequate penetration in bad guys

64 grain power points are a better option
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Old April 2, 2020, 10:42 AM   #5
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Of the hundreds of intruders I have shot with the 45gr Winchester 223's, 275 were stopped instantly... Oh wait, I have never shot anyone with a .223 of any kind, so I would not know if they are good for that or not. But that should not stop other posters from claiming that they somehow can speak with any authority on that subject. And for you guys with 5.56 military experience, that was with FMJ's wasn't it?
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Old April 2, 2020, 11:08 AM   #6
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On a straight FRONTAL chest shot, it would work fine. The problem is how do you guarantee thats the shot you get? Im not sure that round would go thru an arm AND then into the chest cavity. In fact im pretty sure it would not.

Hornady, in its TAP line, did (maybe still does) offer a 45gn 223. So, somebody thought it was viable for something.

Me personally, i would opt for something with a little bit more penetration.
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Old April 2, 2020, 05:14 PM   #7
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45 gr. cup and core bullets are made for "violent" expansion on small light skinned varmints or to break up when they hit the ground. Many are made to work with a 22 Hornet . Many are marginal on coyotes; thus I wouldn't want to use them on a home intruder if I had other options.

64 gr. PP or a monolithic like a Barnes TSX are FAR better for social work.
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Old April 3, 2020, 06:48 AM   #8
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On the other hand

If that's all you've got, that still beats a pointed stick.
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Old April 3, 2020, 12:56 PM   #9
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I feel like we all get hung up on the gear. Should you use the most capable round available for self defense? Of course you should. If you open up on a home invader or three with your AR15 with the crappiest ammo possible for the job will it likely end the fight? I’m gonna say probably as the VAST MAJORITY of people who are taking close range fire decide they need to be somewhere else RIGHT FRIGGIN NOW! So I would imagine that even if your round doesn’t physically immediately stop the threat it is likely to psychologically.

Heck I would argue the vast amount of home invasions would become tactical retreats if they were met with a Ruger 10/22 with 25 rounds of Velocitor’s swarming their way
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Old April 3, 2020, 01:00 PM   #10
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For what it’s worth I like Gold Dots for my good AR food.
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Old April 3, 2020, 03:10 PM   #11
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It would probably work,but if you have another option just use it up on paper, and prairie dogs. At 20¢ a round, why not just burn it up for some fun.
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Old April 4, 2020, 07:26 AM   #12
Willie Lowman
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkJAebfGm4k

7 to 8 inches of penetration with a retained weight of 14 grains? Good for ground hogs. Not much else.
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Old April 4, 2020, 07:32 AM   #13
mikejonestkd
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Before I started to reload ammo I used a ton of WWB 45 HP in my .223 rifles.
They are devastating on woodchucks- literally almost tearing them in half, but they had very little penetration. I'd pick a tougher bullet for self defense.
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Old April 4, 2020, 07:47 AM   #14
dahermit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikejonestkd View Post
Before I started to reload ammo I used a ton of WWB 45 HP in my .223 rifles.
They are devastating on woodchucks- literally almost tearing them in half, but they had very little penetration. I'd pick a tougher bullet for self defense.
Yes...however, why wouldn't a fist-sized hole in an intruder's chest with no exit wound, be a good thing? Ask'en for a friend.

Last edited by dahermit; April 4, 2020 at 08:35 AM.
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Old April 4, 2020, 08:12 AM   #15
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It’s worth a shot!
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Old April 4, 2020, 09:47 AM   #16
mikejonestkd
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Quote:
why wouldn't a fist-sized hole in an intruder's chest with no exit wound, be a good thing
It may be enough, in fact, more than enough to stop a threat. Or, if the assailant has on several layers of clothing, or the bullet hits a large bone, then it may not be enough to stop an assailant quickly.

Each person has different situations/ environment/ needs and wants. i am not claiming win WWB 223 45GR HP is good or bad, just sharing my observations on its effect on 10 pound animals.
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Old April 4, 2020, 03:18 PM   #17
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Would it be "good" for self-defense? I wouldn't volunteer to be shot by it.

To put it in perspective, the video in Willie Lowman's link showed 2,994 feet-per-second out of an 11.5" barrel. Taking a pure guess, can we say maybe 3,200 fps out of a 16" barrel? If we go with that, the muzzle energy is 1,024 ft-lb.

For comparison, the 55-grain M193 that I carried and shot in Vietnam has a muzzle energy of 1,294 ft-lb. The current 62-grain M855 has a muzzle energy of 1,371 ft-lb. So the varmint round is giving up a bit compared to the military stuff. But a lot of people are perfectly happy with a 9mm pistol for self-defense. The muzzle energy of a 115-grain 9mm is 355 ft-lb.

So the varmint round has plenty of energy, and it's pretty clear that all that energy is going to be dissipated in the target -- you're probably not going to have to worry about over penetration. So then the question I would be concerned with is how well it would perform through clothing. It would be interesting to see a video of this ammo being shot into ballistic gelatin through a couple of layers of denim, for example. It would also be interesting to see what happens if it's shot at a sheetrock wall. If it fragments when it hits a wall, that's a positive attribute for a home defense scenario.
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Old April 4, 2020, 11:45 PM   #18
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45gr has less penetration than is ideal, but if I remember correctly, quite a few SWAT teams back in the late ‘80s/early 90s used a Federal Blitz 40gr load, probably out of 1:12 barrels, that was apparently fairly highly regarded at the time (I remember Marshall and Sanow cited a lot of LE shootings with it). The science of terminal ballistics has moved on quite a bit since then, but I would imagine that 45gr might be decently effective for perpendicular shots without intervening limbs. But there are certainly more reliable choices for the edge cases of an intervening muscular arm or an oblique angle.

My current HD load is Winchester 55gr SP, FWIW.
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Old April 5, 2020, 11:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benEzra View Post
45gr has less penetration than is ideal, but if I remember correctly, quite a few SWAT teams back in the late ‘80s/early 90s used a Federal Blitz 40gr load, probably out of 1:12 barrels, that was apparently fairly highly regarded at the time (I remember Marshall and Sanow cited a lot of LE shootings with it). The science of terminal ballistics has moved on quite a bit since then, but I would imagine that 45gr might be decently effective for perpendicular shots without intervening limbs. But there are certainly more reliable choices for the edge cases of an intervening muscular arm or an oblique angle.

My current HD load is Winchester 55gr SP, FWIW.

I’m not aware of many commercial rifles these days using a 1/12 twist. My understanding was that the slower twist lead to more two when projectiles entered soft tissue and bone. Given most everything these days is 1/7 to 1/9 I would be doubtful if the performance is the same.


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Old April 5, 2020, 11:27 AM   #20
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Its far better than a 38.

I am conformable with a 38.

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Old April 5, 2020, 01:11 PM   #21
pete2
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The 45 gr will kill bad guys pretty dead. The FMJ the military uses , 55gr in my day, killed Charlie pretty darn dead and some will say you can't kill a squirrel with FMJ.
There is better ammo but the 45gr will work. It might work better than you think.
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Old April 5, 2020, 01:13 PM   #22
wild cat mccane
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I would add, staying with Winchester also isn't that great.

Fusion/Gold Dot by Vista Outdoors are better.
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Old April 6, 2020, 03:46 PM   #23
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volunteers??

There will be no volunteers to take a hit from that round at any angle, while wearing a jeans jacket. Not ideal, not tactical, not a dedicated SD round, but a rifle round, in excess of 3000 fps, delivering all its energy in a soft target, will be very destructive and more effective than many if not all handgun rounds.

Not ideal, but not worthless either.
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Old April 6, 2020, 04:14 PM   #24
pete2
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It will be more destructive than any .38, 9 MM or .45 round against a bad guy in normal clothes.
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Old May 5, 2020, 11:02 AM   #25
Ruark
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One question: what are you talking about shooting it with? An 30-round AR? A 5-round bolt action?
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