Need help with .38 spl

michiganboy · April 15, 2002, 10:26 PM

I loaded up some .38 special rounds with 125 grain flat point Rainier bullets. I used 5.3 grains of Unique powder and CCI 500 primers with R-P cases. Heres the problem: When I went to the range and shot the Ruger Sp101 It sounded like a fire cracker going off so I opened the cylinder and could see the bullet stuck in the barrel. It had traveled about 3/4 of an inch. I unloaded the gun and took a wooden dowel and drove the bullet out with ease. I thought maybe this round had no powder and just a primer or bullet was oversize. I measured the bullet and check the others and they measured .3565. So I then loaded the gun with one more and shot it and it did the same thing but traveled about an inch this time. I have rechecked my scale and my loading manuals and Alliants web sight and 5.3 grains should have sent the bullet flying at about 1000 fps. I have used Winchester 231 in the past with no problems but wanted to try something else.

I just purchased this jug of powder and it has no signs of deterioration (bad smell or clumping)

If anyone has an idea what may be wrong please let me know

Thank you

**Mal H** · April 15, 2002, 10:38 PM

Just a hunch, but it sounds like you might have 9mm (.355") bullets instead of 38 Spcl (.357" to .358") bullets. So you might not have a good crimp which leads to very low pressure and a squib load. What does the bullet box label have on it?

Freedom in theSkies · April 15, 2002, 10:41 PM

I concur with checking the diameter of the bullets.
How about the primers? Have you used the same lot in other succesful loads?

michiganboy · April 15, 2002, 10:51 PM

The box reads 38 cal 125 grn flat point

This is from Rainiers web sight

38 CAL/.357 Magnum TCJ (.357 diameter)
125gr FP SMB Restrike
125gr HP Restrike

Thanks

labgrade · April 15, 2002, 11:00 PM

Mic a couple bullets that haven't been loaded yet - just for grins. If you've loaded 'em all, pull a couple & measure.

Anything pushed through a crimp, forcing cone & part of a barrel is gonna be differen than newly boxed.

All things being equal, I'd go with the "mixed 9mm" theory, for now. A thou undersized could allow your powder gases to blow on by the bullet ...

Let us know.

BTW, I've never had the wrong size bullets in a box, but I have had the wrong weight as marked.

Maximus Firepowerus · April 15, 2002, 11:02 PM

I was wondering if there was something left of the 5.3 grains of powder you put in when you tapped out the bullet. If there was something looking like a few grains (1.0-2.0+ grains), I'd say it might be the primer or possibly bad powder. If you don't recall seeing any powder, are you sure there's powder in it? Pull the bullet off of one that you loaded to see what that charge weighs. This sounds like a stupid question but were you using a multistage press or single? Sometimes I've seen multi-stage presses where the powder dispenser is accidentally turned off or just plain fails to charge the cartridge.

Lastly, if it's not the powder or the powder charge, and not the primer, CHECK YOUR CRIMP. If the bullets are not seated correctly (seated too far out or there very loose). This might cause the powder not to build up enough pressure to fire the bullet at the correct speed. Honestly, I have never heard of needing to put a heavy crimp on a .38 spec bullet let alone worrying about if there is any type of significant crimp, but! I've got some good .454 casull reloading stories about crimping that lead me to believe that crimping might also be a cause too.

Let us know what it was, ya got me wondering!

**Mal H** · April 15, 2002, 11:02 PM

Size sounds ok. Since you got the "firecracker sound" and the bullet went in about as far as a primer alone will normally push it, I've gotta think the primers are doing their job.

5.3 gr of Unique is certainly not a light load, so powder position shouldn't be a problem. That leaves the crimp and the powder itself.

Do you have a good solid roll crimp? You can check the powder outside of the case by simply lighting a small pile of it (~ 1/3 teaspoon should do) with a long match in a safe location outside. It should light very readily and all of it should burn up fairly fast. If you can't get it to light immediately, it might have been contaminated by who knows what.

**Mal H** · April 15, 2002, 11:05 PM

A new record! Three of us posted at essentially the same time.

John DR · April 15, 2002, 11:27 PM

.3565 is A little small, sounds like you got 9mm bullets, witch will cause you some problems.
Bad primers will also cause this, as will bad powder.
You'll have to check back A your starting point and try to find the problem.
But if I had to guess I'd go with the bullet and crimp.

Hope This Helps

birdman · April 16, 2002, 09:16 AM

I had the same type problem a couple of years ago with Unique powder and Winchester small pistol primers in a .357. Since the powder worked fine in other calibers I blamed it on the primers. BTW I was loading with 7.5 gr. behind a 110 gr JHP. Loaded the rest with magnum primers and never had another problem.

C.R.Sam · April 16, 2002, 10:12 AM

Disagree re small bullet causin problem.

Either no or bad powder.

Sam.

**Mike Irwin** · April 16, 2002, 10:19 AM

I'm thinking either bad or contaminated powder.

With Unique, being as fast burning as it is, virtually NO crimp and bullets flopping around in the case mouth should still be able to generate enough oomph to make the bullet clear the rifling.

Johnny Guest · April 16, 2002, 10:48 AM

Michiganboy--I've loaded many, many housands of .38 Spl loads with a wide variety of bullets, mostly with Unique powder.

Could your powder have become contaminated? If so, though, you should have a LOT of unburned granules of powder in case, chamber and barrel.

Bullet only partway down barrel sure sounds as if you had a stoppage in powder measure and failed to throw powder into some cases.

Under size bullets--9 mm rather than .38 Spl shouldn't make that much difference. I've experimented with a lot of 9 mm bullets in .38 cases and they always shot okay, if not particularly accurately.

Suggest you try fresh powder and make another stab at it.

John DR-- .3565 is not really undersize for a .357 bore. Most 9 x 19 bullets run .355 to .356.

Best,
Johnny

stans · April 16, 2002, 11:48 AM

I am thinking it is a powder problem. Either powder did not make it into the case or the powder is contaminated.

cukrus · April 16, 2002, 12:45 PM

My procedure with this problem is as follows. Weigh your remaining loads. They should be within a couple of grains of each other. Pull the bullets on any that are about 5 grains lighter.
If they are all the same weight just pull the bullets anyway. Weigh the powder charge.
If there is any powder try lighting a single charge with a match. Lets us know what you find and how it burns.
I will state categorically (what ever that means) that the bullets are not the problem.

Cain R · April 17, 2002, 12:44 PM

I've had the same EXACT problem with one can of Unique and Federal primers in my .38. Changed to WW231, using the same primers, everything worked great again.

birdman · April 17, 2002, 01:51 PM

Seems that Cain R and I have had basically the same situation as you and solved it a different way. I went to mag primers while Cain R changed powder. Yes, I would have thought that you shouldn't need a hot primer with Unique even with a light bullet but that's the way it worked out with my .357 load. Since Unique is adaptable to so many calibers just try it in some other cartridge. My guess is that a heavier bullet would also solve the problem. regards, birdman

**Mal H** · April 17, 2002, 05:36 PM

We still aren't sure the cases had powder in them. In squib loads there is almost always a bunch of unburned powder in the case, all over the cylinder and in the forcing cone.

michiganboy - you're up. Any evidence of unburned powder?

michiganboy · April 17, 2002, 11:41 PM

Hello again,

I did not see any unburned powder so what I have done is pulled the bullets and reweighed the loads and they are right at 5.3 grains. I still had some Winchester 231 in the cabinet so I reloaded 5 of the same cases with the same primers and same bullets 5.3 grains of 231. well I went to the range and fired a round and it sounded under powered and would not penetrate the backstop (old conveyor belting). I checked the barrel and it was clear. I then fired the other 4 with no improvement. I then returned home and loaded 5 differant cases with a differant batch of primers and 5.3 grains of 231 and same bullets. Well today I went back to the range and fired the rounds and WOW what a difference. It had some recoil and penatrated the target and backstop.

Can it be bad primers? I would think a primer would fire or not fire.

Also what about crimp? These Rainier bullets do not have the groove to get a good crimp. When I pulled the bullets there was a ring left from crimping.

I also remeasured the bullets with a mic and they are exactly .357 in diameter.

Borf · April 18, 2002, 12:10 AM

What kind of scale are you using? Is there a sliding weight that could be a notch off? Could it be zeroed improperly? Try some check weights on it. Weigh some bullets. Weigh a penny (should be ~39 grains?? That's what I get anyway). Then reset it to 5.3 and weigh your powder again.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 5 grains of unique should slightly more than half fill a .38 spl case. Is this what you're seeing?

Edit - woops! Didn't see you had success with the other primers. Although is it possible your scale had been reset between the first session and this one?

Maximus Firepowerus · April 18, 2002, 02:17 AM

So, if it was the primers, where did all the powder go? Are you using a auto index powder charger or what are you using to charge your cases?

Just curious, where did you store the primers and how old are they? (make sure none of use are storing it that way too- lol)

Also one quick thing, that 5.3 gr charge of winchester 231 is according to Winchester's loading data online, right at the top of the do not exceed pressure curve for a 38+P special load. So please don't try and use magnum pistol primers for this load! And if you think you may still be having problems with the Win231 loads you might start at the lower "starting charge weight of 4.8grs" listed just for a little margin of error.

I also guess the trick is to try the "new" primers with the Unique loads and see what works. If nothing good happens with your unique and new primers- bad powder. If everything works good with unique and new primers, I think you know what's up. (bad old primers)

But I'm still wondering where ALL of that 5.3 unique grains of powder went if the primer was bad? Whenever I have primer trouble or some truely horrible crimps, I always seem to have unburnt or scalded powder seemly everywhere, even with a 9mm/38 cartridge.

Also Rainier bullets are actually slightly oversized for the barrel. This is why there is no crimp groove because the bullets grab the case wall better (says Rainier). For example their 9mm bullets are sized at .3555 instead of .3550. I'm saying this for two reasons. First, with Rainier, there really is not a lot of crimping to do (the bullets seem to want to stay put with suprisingly little crimping needed). SO I DON'T THINK IT's YOUR CRIMP. Secondly it makes me wonder a little about the overall lenght of your finished cartridges. With no crimp groove to guide you have you checked the OAL of your bullets? Also are you shooting the .38 loads in a .38 special or a .357. Again there's a reason to my asking. If your shooting a .38 special revolver only, the cylinder will give you trouble if one was to really mess up the OAL of the cartridge with the bullet sticking too far out of the cartridge. On the other hand, a .357 revolver has a longer cartridge and a .38 special cartridge loaded in a .357 cylinder could litterally swim in the cylinder before it would interfere with the turning of the cylinder. Also if the OAL is too long, it effects burn rates and pressure curve. Put a bullet too deep in a cartridge and a safe load suddenly becomes very dangerious. Put a bullet too far out of it's case and well, the powder in the cartridge may not preform as advertised (squib load).

Ah, well, good luck, let us know what happens.

Lol- Did I miss anything?

Sorry, I've spent just a little time thinking about this one.....

April 15, 2002, 10:26 PM	#1
michiganboy Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2002 Location: Gaylord, MI Posts: 6	Need help with .38 spl I loaded up some .38 special rounds with 125 grain flat point Rainier bullets. I used 5.3 grains of Unique powder and CCI 500 primers with R-P cases. Heres the problem: When I went to the range and shot the Ruger Sp101 It sounded like a fire cracker going off so I opened the cylinder and could see the bullet stuck in the barrel. It had traveled about 3/4 of an inch. I unloaded the gun and took a wooden dowel and drove the bullet out with ease. I thought maybe this round had no powder and just a primer or bullet was oversize. I measured the bullet and check the others and they measured .3565. So I then loaded the gun with one more and shot it and it did the same thing but traveled about an inch this time. I have rechecked my scale and my loading manuals and Alliants web sight and 5.3 grains should have sent the bullet flying at about 1000 fps. I have used Winchester 231 in the past with no problems but wanted to try something else. I just purchased this jug of powder and it has no signs of deterioration (bad smell or clumping) If anyone has an idea what may be wrong please let me know Thank you __________________ Ruger P89, P90, P944 Mini 14, 10/22, SP101 Baby Eagle 40 S&W Sig P226 40 S&W Glock 23C 40 S&W

April 15, 2002, 10:41 PM	#3
Freedom in theSkies Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2001 Location: The "Nice Dictatorship" of Canada Posts: 250	I concur with checking the diameter of the bullets. How about the primers? Have you used the same lot in other succesful loads? __________________ Live in peace... But defend it...Embrace it... But never take it for granted...

April 15, 2002, 10:51 PM	#4
michiganboy Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2002 Location: Gaylord, MI Posts: 6	The box reads 38 cal 125 grn flat point This is from Rainiers web sight 38 CAL/.357 Magnum TCJ (.357 diameter) 125gr FP SMB Restrike 125gr HP Restrike Thanks __________________ Ruger P89, P90, P944 Mini 14, 10/22, SP101 Baby Eagle 40 S&W Sig P226 40 S&W Glock 23C 40 S&W

April 15, 2002, 11:02 PM	#6
Maximus Firepowerus Member Join Date: August 22, 2001 Location: Missouri Posts: 18	Sounds Odd? I was wondering if there was something left of the 5.3 grains of powder you put in when you tapped out the bullet. If there was something looking like a few grains (1.0-2.0+ grains), I'd say it might be the primer or possibly bad powder. If you don't recall seeing any powder, are you sure there's powder in it? Pull the bullet off of one that you loaded to see what that charge weighs. This sounds like a stupid question but were you using a multistage press or single? Sometimes I've seen multi-stage presses where the powder dispenser is accidentally turned off or just plain fails to charge the cartridge. Lastly, if it's not the powder or the powder charge, and not the primer, CHECK YOUR CRIMP. If the bullets are not seated correctly (seated too far out or there very loose). This might cause the powder not to build up enough pressure to fire the bullet at the correct speed. Honestly, I have never heard of needing to put a heavy crimp on a .38 spec bullet let alone worrying about if there is any type of significant crimp, but! I've got some good .454 casull reloading stories about crimping that lead me to believe that crimping might also be a cause too. Let us know what it was, ya got me wondering!

April 15, 2002, 11:27 PM	#9
John DR Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2002 Location: Michigan U.S.A. Posts: 114	.3565 is A little small, sounds like you got 9mm bullets, witch will cause you some problems. Bad primers will also cause this, as will bad powder. You'll have to check back A your starting point and try to find the problem. But if I had to guess I'd go with the bullet and crimp. Hope This Helps __________________ John Life NRA Member You Can Be Too Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun! Matter of fact, so has his nephew's golf club A good gun will last a lifetime. A cheap gun will shorten your lifetime. "We're in a society where we're making inanimate objects responsible for our stupidity"

April 15, 2002, 10:38 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Just a hunch, but it sounds like you might have 9mm (.355") bullets instead of 38 Spcl (.357" to .358") bullets. So you might not have a good crimp which leads to very low pressure and a squib load. What does the bullet box label have on it?

April 15, 2002, 11:00 PM	#5
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Mic a couple bullets that haven't been loaded yet - just for grins. If you've loaded 'em all, pull a couple & measure. Anything pushed through a crimp, forcing cone & part of a barrel is gonna be differen than newly boxed. All things being equal, I'd go with the "mixed 9mm" theory, for now. A thou undersized could allow your powder gases to blow on by the bullet ... Let us know. BTW, I've never had the wrong size bullets in a box, but I have had the wrong weight as marked.

April 15, 2002, 11:05 PM	#8
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	A new record! Three of us posted at essentially the same time.

April 16, 2002, 09:16 AM	#10
birdman Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2000 Posts: 105	I had the same type problem a couple of years ago with Unique powder and Winchester small pistol primers in a .357. Since the powder worked fine in other calibers I blamed it on the primers. BTW I was loading with 7.5 gr. behind a 110 gr JHP. Loaded the rest with magnum primers and never had another problem.

April 16, 2002, 10:12 AM	#11
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Disagree re small bullet causin problem. Either no or bad powder. Sam.

April 16, 2002, 10:19 AM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I'm thinking either bad or contaminated powder. With Unique, being as fast burning as it is, virtually NO crimp and bullets flopping around in the case mouth should still be able to generate enough oomph to make the bullet clear the rifling. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 16, 2002, 10:48 AM	#13
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	Concur as to lack of powder - - - Michiganboy--I've loaded many, many housands of .38 Spl loads with a wide variety of bullets, mostly with Unique powder. Could your powder have become contaminated? If so, though, you should have a LOT of unburned granules of powder in case, chamber and barrel. Bullet only partway down barrel sure sounds as if you had a stoppage in powder measure and failed to throw powder into some cases. Under size bullets--9 mm rather than .38 Spl shouldn't make that much difference. I've experimented with a lot of 9 mm bullets in .38 cases and they always shot okay, if not particularly accurately. Suggest you try fresh powder and make another stab at it. John DR-- .3565 is not really undersize for a .357 bore. Most 9 x 19 bullets run .355 to .356. Best, Johnny

April 16, 2002, 11:48 AM	#14
stans Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2001 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 838	I am thinking it is a powder problem. Either powder did not make it into the case or the powder is contaminated.

April 16, 2002, 12:45 PM	#15
cukrus Member Join Date: December 4, 2001 Posts: 33	Help with .38 Special My procedure with this problem is as follows. Weigh your remaining loads. They should be within a couple of grains of each other. Pull the bullets on any that are about 5 grains lighter. If they are all the same weight just pull the bullets anyway. Weigh the powder charge. If there is any powder try lighting a single charge with a match. Lets us know what you find and how it burns. I will state categorically (what ever that means) that the bullets are not the problem.

April 17, 2002, 12:44 PM	#16
Cain R Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2001 Location: Peoples Dominion of Kanada Posts: 288	I've had the same EXACT problem with one can of Unique and Federal primers in my .38. Changed to WW231, using the same primers, everything worked great again.

April 17, 2002, 01:51 PM	#17
birdman Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2000 Posts: 105	Seems that Cain R and I have had basically the same situation as you and solved it a different way. I went to mag primers while Cain R changed powder. Yes, I would have thought that you shouldn't need a hot primer with Unique even with a light bullet but that's the way it worked out with my .357 load. Since Unique is adaptable to so many calibers just try it in some other cartridge. My guess is that a heavier bullet would also solve the problem. regards, birdman

April 17, 2002, 05:36 PM	#18
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	We still aren't sure the cases had powder in them. In squib loads there is almost always a bunch of unburned powder in the case, all over the cylinder and in the forcing cone. michiganboy - you're up. Any evidence of unburned powder?

April 17, 2002, 11:41 PM	#19
michiganboy Junior Member Join Date: February 20, 2002 Location: Gaylord, MI Posts: 6	Hello again, I did not see any unburned powder so what I have done is pulled the bullets and reweighed the loads and they are right at 5.3 grains. I still had some Winchester 231 in the cabinet so I reloaded 5 of the same cases with the same primers and same bullets 5.3 grains of 231. well I went to the range and fired a round and it sounded under powered and would not penetrate the backstop (old conveyor belting). I checked the barrel and it was clear. I then fired the other 4 with no improvement. I then returned home and loaded 5 differant cases with a differant batch of primers and 5.3 grains of 231 and same bullets. Well today I went back to the range and fired the rounds and WOW what a difference. It had some recoil and penatrated the target and backstop. Can it be bad primers? I would think a primer would fire or not fire. Also what about crimp? These Rainier bullets do not have the groove to get a good crimp. When I pulled the bullets there was a ring left from crimping. I also remeasured the bullets with a mic and they are exactly .357 in diameter. __________________ Ruger P89, P90, P944 Mini 14, 10/22, SP101 Baby Eagle 40 S&W Sig P226 40 S&W Glock 23C 40 S&W

April 18, 2002, 12:10 AM	#20
Borf Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2001 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 424	What kind of scale are you using? Is there a sliding weight that could be a notch off? Could it be zeroed improperly? Try some check weights on it. Weigh some bullets. Weigh a penny (should be ~39 grains?? That's what I get anyway). Then reset it to 5.3 and weigh your powder again. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think 5 grains of unique should slightly more than half fill a .38 spl case. Is this what you're seeing? Edit - woops! Didn't see you had success with the other primers. Although is it possible your scale had been reset between the first session and this one? __________________ A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices. -- Wiliam James If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money it values more, it will lose that, too. -- W. Somerset Maugham

April 18, 2002, 02:17 AM	#21
Maximus Firepowerus Member Join Date: August 22, 2001 Location: Missouri Posts: 18	Ok, so it was the primers? So, if it was the primers, where did all the powder go? Are you using a auto index powder charger or what are you using to charge your cases? Just curious, where did you store the primers and how old are they? (make sure none of use are storing it that way too- lol) Also one quick thing, that 5.3 gr charge of winchester 231 is according to Winchester's loading data online, right at the top of the do not exceed pressure curve for a 38+P special load. So please don't try and use magnum pistol primers for this load! And if you think you may still be having problems with the Win231 loads you might start at the lower "starting charge weight of 4.8grs" listed just for a little margin of error. I also guess the trick is to try the "new" primers with the Unique loads and see what works. If nothing good happens with your unique and new primers- bad powder. If everything works good with unique and new primers, I think you know what's up. (bad old primers) But I'm still wondering where ALL of that 5.3 unique grains of powder went if the primer was bad? Whenever I have primer trouble or some truely horrible crimps, I always seem to have unburnt or scalded powder seemly everywhere, even with a 9mm/38 cartridge. Also Rainier bullets are actually slightly oversized for the barrel. This is why there is no crimp groove because the bullets grab the case wall better (says Rainier). For example their 9mm bullets are sized at .3555 instead of .3550. I'm saying this for two reasons. First, with Rainier, there really is not a lot of crimping to do (the bullets seem to want to stay put with suprisingly little crimping needed). SO I DON'T THINK IT's YOUR CRIMP. Secondly it makes me wonder a little about the overall lenght of your finished cartridges. With no crimp groove to guide you have you checked the OAL of your bullets? Also are you shooting the .38 loads in a .38 special or a .357. Again there's a reason to my asking. If your shooting a .38 special revolver only, the cylinder will give you trouble if one was to really mess up the OAL of the cartridge with the bullet sticking too far out of the cartridge. On the other hand, a .357 revolver has a longer cartridge and a .38 special cartridge loaded in a .357 cylinder could litterally swim in the cylinder before it would interfere with the turning of the cylinder. Also if the OAL is too long, it effects burn rates and pressure curve. Put a bullet too deep in a cartridge and a safe load suddenly becomes very dangerious. Put a bullet too far out of it's case and well, the powder in the cartridge may not preform as advertised (squib load). Ah, well, good luck, let us know what happens. Lol- Did I miss anything? Sorry, I've spent just a little time thinking about this one.....