removing copper fouling ?

[Jimro]

There is a big difference working in an autobody shop and cleaning a rifle. Unless you are using a spray gun to aerosolize gallons of cleaning solvent for 8 hours a day. Chemical sensitivity syndrome is common among autobody workers (and chemistry teachers who teach Lab for hours on hours every day).

There plenty of chemicals used in the painting industry that are NOT used in bore cleaners.

In fact, Hoppe's eliminated the one chemical that was moderately carcinogenic from its formula years ago. Bottom line, all cleaning solutions work if used as directed.

Jimro

[MaDMaXX]

So you're saying that the warnings on the containers not to breathe the vapours and not to have skin contact are ok? You're not going to die from just occasional contact, i understand that.

I don't see the point in unnecessarily exposing myself to the chemicals when i don't have to.

If you think there was only one carcinogenic chemical in Hoppe's, i don't think you're correct, petroleum is carcinogenic and it's still a petro based product.

If you're talking about their Elite range (made by M-Pro 7 and all 'non-toxic') then yes, nothing carcinogenic in there.

All cleaners will work to varying degrees, as per the article i linked, the petro-based cleaners are highly ineffective on the carbon, hence the want for the newer more effective cleaners, which have a side benefit of being non toxic


It's a win-win, i don't understand why you're saying not to worry about using the older ineffective and carcinogenic cleaners?

[steveNChunter]

I've used the Hoppe's Elite bore cleaner you speak of, and was very unimpressed. Hoppe's #9 on the other hand, is part of my regular cleaning routine. The Elite seems to get carbon fouling pretty good, but as for copper, it hardly touches it compared to my "deadly" Sweet's

I am however thinking of giving the Boretech A try when I run out of Sweet's

[MaDMaXX]

Yeah, it seems that some of the older formulations have a little action against copper, but the newer ones are more targeted, so they have split them, carbon cleaners and copper cleaners.

For example, the elite gun cleaner is only for carbon/lead, the elite copper terminator is for that metal.


*Edit: Just looking over Hoppe's website, it does seem they still do, essentially, 3 versions of everything;

The original stuff (old tech)
The synthetic version of the original stuff (Biodegradable)
The Elite versions (made for them by M-Pro 7)


From a business standpoint, this is a reasonable indication that their old products are still popular, it's been around so long, and whether or not it's a good reason to keep them in production, people still want and buy them, they swear by them.

[Idashot1k]

I used to use KG-12. Then i realized my KG-1 Carbon stuff had taken out all the copper by the time the carbon was done. Now I have a quart of it, ill be good to go for a year.

[steveNChunter]

How in the world did the old timers manage any sort of accuracy with the old fashioned bore cleaners that we have recently learned don't do a sufficient job?

[MaDMaXX]

We all have to remember that you're going to get varying effects from different ammo, barrels and cleaning efforts, so i guess YMMV.

steveNChunter, i don't think any of us are saying that, or to what effects having a gummed up barrel will cause. I've heard various stories of barrels that are condemned purely based upon not realising they're just gummed up too much.

Borescopes have allowed previously unknown inspection capabilities, i find it useful to know two things from this.

1) We've had high chances of merely cleaned residue build-up.
2) We might not need barrels to be as clean as we thought?


It's also entirely possible that we didn't know things could be as accurate as they possibly could be? I don't know, but the borescope is telling us that the old products, whilst they do "work", they clearly don't work to the degree we always thought they did.

[stubbicatt]

Glad I saw this thread again. In a month or two I'll embark on breaking in a new F Class barrel. I had planned to use Butch's Bore Shine for this procedure. After reading that article, I am dismayed to learn that I should instead use a 2 step procedure featuring Slip 2000 carbon cutter followed by Bore Tech Eliminator or a similar copper remover. I had hoped not to have to buy another set of solvents. Also, I had hoped not to have to use brushes.

I guess I need to re evaluate.

[hooligan1]

Max, choose which one makes you feel best. And then apologize for Hijacking Rebs thread!

[reynolds357]

It seems to me that different cleaning solutions work better in certain circumstances. If you are not in a hurry, the easiest way to get a rifle clean is let solvents that are long term soak safe, soak overnight. Then do it again. Then do it again. Keep doing it until it is clean. I usually use Montana extreme for the initial cleaning, then neutralize it, and let br9 soak 24 hr intervals until all the fine stuff is removed.

[wogpotter]

Agreed! I used to use regular plain ol Hoppes #9 overnight for "routine end-of-the day" cleaning but Sweets for "its filthy & I need to shoot again this afternoon" applications.

Then Mrs WP got ashma & I got a lung damaging medical problem so neither of us could do the strong fumes. The KG big bore & the M-pro don't have strong smells & clean very well, so I switched.

Sometimes the cause of switching isn't proceedural, but is prompted by something else external that requires changes to be made.

[Doyle]

How in the world did the old timers manage any sort of accuracy with the old fashioned bore cleaners that we have recently learned don't do a sufficient job?

If you are referring to serious old timers (i.e. back before WWII), they didn't have to worry about copper fouling. Most bullets used before then (other than milspec stuff) were unplated lead.

[Stevie-Ray]

I used Hoppe's #9 Copper Solvent on my son's stainless T/C Encore .300 Win Mag bbl, after he shot about a million copper solids through it.

This is what I've used extensively as well, on my FAL, which gets a lot of copper fouling. It's always worked splendidly, but then I had a huge bottle of it, and there might be better copper cutters out there now, for all I know.

[MaDMaXX]

It's a shame Rebs hasn't been back to let us know how it went

Glad this didn't need to create a new thread though, lots of opinions and i'm glad there is a nice selection of the modern cleaners, i just can't decide which is going to be best :/

[steveNChunter]

If you are referring to serious old timers (i.e. back before WWII), they didn't have to worry about copper fouling. Most bullets used before then (other than milspec stuff) were unplated lead.

No I was referring to the days before all the new synthetic and ammonia free bore solvents, which hasn't really been all that long ago.

[MaDMaXX]

Yeah, not so long in the grand scheme of things, ~15 years.

[Jimro]

Traditional military FMJ's have an exposed lead base. That allows some lead to "vaporize" and mix with the hot copper left on the bore, causing a brittle lead/copper mixture to condense and be easily removed.

When the military started going to non-lead projectiles, that is when you started seeing tin dioxide added to propellent mixes to keep the "anti-coppering" properties for reliability in machine guns.

So the military doesn't have a huge problem with copper fouling (save for sniper rifles that started using HPBT projectiles after abandoning the M72 bullet).

Most shooters develop a cleaning regiment that allows the accuracy potential of the rifle to come back, not necessarily scrub the bore down to bare metal. And truth be told, most of us clean way more often than we need to.

On my shelf I have MPro7, Shooter's Choice, Rem 40-X, Dextron III and 10w-30. I've used foaming bore cleaners in the past and they worked ok. My experience with Hoppes #9 is that if you don't "scrub" the bore with a brush you'll be wasting a lot of time running patches.

I've also done the "engine cleaner" route, and that really works, but can be hell on your stock finish.

But if you really want to get a cruddy AR bolt clean, soak it in some 10w-30. I've converted more than one infantry grunt to using motor oil to clean their M4.

Jimro

[rebs]

I have been back reading all the posts, I wanted to use the M-pro 7 products a few times before I gave my opinion on them.

I gave the M-pro 7 and M-pro 7 copper cleaner a try and they both worked good for me. I had read that M-pro 7 is the same as Hoppe's elite, can anyone confirm this ? Now I see Hoppe's has a foaming bore cleaner, I wonder how well it works. Has anyone used Gunslick foaming bore cleaner ?

[wogpotter]

I had read that M-pro 7 is the same as Hoppe's elite, can anyone confirm this ?

From some things I've read this is true to an extent. Hopopes buys the elite from M-pro, the Hoppes version has a "slightly rebalanced formula" though. What that ad mans hyperbole actually means is anyone's guesss.

[sundog]

Wipe-out. Number 1.

When my current supply of Hoppes Bench Rest runs out I will try some 5-part Ed's Red (fifth part being ammonia - high grade, not the store bought stuff).

I use Ed's Red for just about everything anymore (shoot A LOT of cast so don't use all that much copper solvent), so it just makes sense to try the 5-part stuff.

[shurshot]

Like a few already posted before me; Hoppe's #9, and let it sit for a few hours and or overnight. My family has used it for several generations. Hoppe's #9, a little time and a brass brush. Works fine.

[rem1858]

Follow the instructions using Sweets 7.62 but instead of using a dry patch to push the froth out soak a patch with Hydrogen Peroxide like you get at Walgreens.
Push this ever so slowly through the barrel out the muzzle.
Push a dry patch through after the Peroxide.

Repeat above until it is clean.
It will not take long.

Has worked for me with little elbow grease.

YMMV

Clarence

[MaDMaXX]

Correct, the Hopppe's Elite range is made b M-Pro7, from their website. Normally when this kind of thing happens and they state it's not quite the same formula, it's due to them not wanting it to be quite as good as their own, otherwise it's competition.

It's like Heinz make beans for a grocery store in the UK, but it's not quite as good a quality as the genuine article.

[rebs]

I have decided that I like the M pro 7 cleaner and copper cleaner enough to make it my cleaners from now on. The cleaner has worked very well with removing the carbon and the copper cleaner has worked very well for removing the copper.

[MaDMaXX]

Thanks Rebs, i think i'm on the verge of just adding the MPro copper remover to my collection.