Racking the 30 Super Carry

[Jaywalker]

I'm considering a S&W Shield EZ. I understand the 380 racks the easiest, but is the 30SC easier to rack than the 9mm?

[Shadow9mm]

Id steer clear of 30sc i dont think its catching on well any may not be around long.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Id steer clear of 30sc i dont think its catching on well any may not be around long.

That doesn't answer the OP's question. Your opinion on whether the cartridge will endure is irrelevant.

[Webleymkv]

The weight of the recoil spring should be largely dependent on the recoil of the cartridge through the gun it's being fired in. Because both the 9mm and .30 Super Carry versions of the Shield EZ weigh nearly the same (23.81 oz for the 9mm and 23.6 oz for the .30 Super Carry) then the recoil of .30 Super Carry vs. 9mm should be the determining factor in the weight of their recoil springs and thus how easy/difficult the slides are to rack (the hammer spring will also play into this, but I cannot think of any reason that one caliber would need a stiffer hammer spring than the other). If we look at the advertised velocities of Federal ammunition (they were the first to bring the ammo to market and thus likely the ammo used by S&W when developing the gun), we see that the .30 Super Carry HST loading is a 100 gr bullet at 1250 fps while the 9mm HST to which it is usually compared is a 124 gr bullet at 1150 fps.

Most recoil calculators require the input of the grains of powder loaded in the cartridge, so we need to find reloading data that gives us similar ballistics to the factory load. From Hodgdon, we see that in .30 Super Carry, a 100 gr Hornady XTP over 4.6 grains of either CFE Pistol or Autocomp powder produced 1250 fps from their 4" test barrel. In 9mm, we see that a 124 gr XTP over 5.1 grains of either of CFE Pistol or Autocomp gave 1181 fps (I think we can live with a difference of 31 fps from Federal's advertised velocities).

So, now that we have data that includes the powder charges, we can run the numbers through a recoil calculator. For the sake of simplicity, I put the weight of both firearms at 1.5 lbs (they're both slightly less) and got the following result:

.30 Super Carry: 100 gr bullet/4.6 gr powder/1250 fps
Recoil Impulse 0.66 lbs.sec
Recoil Velocity 14.1 fps
Recoil Energy 4.63 ft.lbs

9mm Luger: 124 gr bullet/5.1 gr powder/1181 fps
Recoil Impulse 0.76 lbs.sec
Recoil Velocity 16.38 fps
Recoil Energy 6.25 ft.lbs

So, it would appear that the 9mm has more recoil, though not all that much more. The reports that I've seen from people who have shot .30 Super Carry and 9mm Shield EZ's side-by-side is that there is no discernable difference in recoil. As such, I would expect the .30 Super Carry Shield EZ to have a very similar, if not identical, weight recoil spring as the 9mm version and thus require about the same effort to rack.

As a point of comparison, the Shield EZ .380 weighs only 18.5 oz and .380 HST is advertised as a 99 gr bullet at 935 fps. Going to Hodgdon's data, we see that a 100 gr Hornady FMJ over 4.2 gr of Autocomp gave 934 fps from their 3.75" test barrel (same length Federal used for their HST). If we run the recoil calculation on that and put the weight of the gun at 1.15 lbs, we get the following:

.380 Auto 100gr bullet/4.2 gr powder/934 fps
Recoil Impulse 0.51 lbs.sec
Recoil Velocity 14.21 fps
Recoil Energy 3.61 ft.lbs

So, when the weight of the gun is taken into account, .380 gives nearly identical recoil velocity but lower recoil impulse and energy than .30 Super Carry even from a lighter gun, thus why the .380 can have a lighter recoil spring and thus be easier to rack.

[wild cat mccane]

I don't know the answer.

The EZ 30SC is heavier than the 9mm EZ. That's probably the barrel of the 30SC.

To answer your own question, if you can find out if they share the exact same RSA, you know the 9mm and 30SC rack the exact same and can't be different, regardless of someone's opinion.

[Jim Watson]

Sorry 'bout that.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by Jim Watson
Google, man, google. I found for you


Part# 3014675 Smith and Wesson M&P M2.0 Shield Plus Recoil Spring Assembly Pistol 9mm, .30 Super Carry 3.1" Barrel Length.
Smith & Wesson Factory New Part.

The OP didn't ask about the M&P 2.0 Shield Plus, he asked about the M&P Shield EZ which uses a different recoil spring than the Shield Plus (it's confusing because S&W calls so many different guns M&P and Shield). If the part numbers for the 9mm and .30 Super Carry recoil springs are available, I haven't been able to find them.

[wild cat mccane]

Yeah, it's not the standard M&P spring because it is advertised as having a lower weight spring to help racking.

However, I can't google find a single sku for the 9mm or 30SC EZ RSA, so I doubt anyone would have any idea on this answer.

Also...not being able to buy a RSA, THE wear component in an auto would make we very leery of buying any gun.

Good luck OP. I think you might hear suggestions of sampling at the counter, but I don't think anyone can say without seeing the 30SC and 9mm RSA skus

[44 AMP]

Go find a shop that has both models in stock and find out for yourself. Easy for you and easy for me might be quite different things.

Technique matters, too. Holding the grip and pulling on the slide has a different feel than holding the slide and pushing on the grip.

Blowback guns often feel easier to rack than locked breech guns, but not always, as some blowback designs actually have heavier springs to hold them shut.

[wild cat mccane]

Definitely confusing to investigate because the model is called the "M&P Shield EZ." Three distinct models within one name, all three with different RSA.

I did see someone recently commented on the S&W forum that it impossible to get a new RSA for the 9mm and they couldn't find the model number either.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Blowback guns often feel easier to rack than locked breech guns, but not always, as some blowback designs actually have heavier springs to hold them shut.

My experience has been that blowback centerfire pistols are much harder to rack the slide than locked breech. That's why some blowback pistols have a hinged tipping barrel. It's much easier to load them that way.

[Rod1951]

I have the Shield EZ in 30SC I have arthritis in my hand and have no problem racking the slide. As someone mentioned ammo may become a problem so I am stocking up now. Magazine is easy to load. It is the gun I currently carry most of the time.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 74A95

That doesn't answer the OP's question. Your opinion on whether the cartridge will endure is irrelevant.

Op is looking to buy a new pistol. Whether 30sc racks easier is irrelevant if you cant get ammo for it and that needs to be taken into consideration.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Op is looking to buy a new pistol. Whether 30sc racks easier is irrelevant if you cant get ammo for it and that needs to be taken into consideration.

What information do you have about sales figures of guns? What information do you have about what the gun and ammo companies see with respect to the future of this caliber?

Please share your information so we will know what you know. Thanks.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 74A95

What information do you have about sales figures of guns? What information do you have about what the gun and ammo companies see with respect to the future of this caliber?

Please share your information so we will know what you know. Thanks.

Good questions, but ones I can't answer. But those are not the only metrics by which to judge a cartridges successful.

What i can tell you is that 30sc has been out for about 2 years now, released in 2022

In those 2 years the original 2 manufacturers of firearms in 30sc were s&w and nighthawk. That is the same today. If the cartridge was doing well more manufacturers would be chambering for it.

Looking at available ammunition. After 2 years, we have 3 offerings form federal, 2 from remington, 2 from cci/speer, and 1 from hornady. In 2 years only Hornady has added the cartridge to its offerings. Federal did add a load with their new punch bullet as well. But where are all the other manufacturers... and im not talking the botique guys.

Looking over youtube videos, the majority are 1 to 2 years old indicatinga significantdeclinein interest. The few posted within the last 2-3 months have been critical of the cartridge, with some even outright saying it failed and asked if it can or even should be saved.

I can also tell you i have not seen one in a gun shop yet and i have been looking, thus i cant relate slide racking pressure as i have not been able to handle one. But my guess would be it would need a heavier spring as it runs at 52k psi.

Ops best bet would be to call s&w and ask what the spring weights are in each of the guns to know for sure.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Good questions, but ones I can't answer. But those are not the only metrics by which to judge a cartridges successful.

What i can tell you is that 30sc has been out for about 2 years now, released in 2022

In those 2 years the original 2 manufacturers of firearms in 30sc were s&w and nighthawk. That is the same today. If the cartridge was doing well more manufacturers would be chambering for it.

Looking over youtube videos, the majority are 1 to 2 years old indicatinga significantdeclinein interest. The few posted within the last 2-3 months have been critical of the cartridge, with some even outright saying it failed and asked if it can or even should be saved.

I can also tell you i have not seen one in a gun shop yet and i have been looking, thus i cant relate slide racking pressure as i have not been able to handle one. But my guess would be it would need a heavier spring as it runs at 52k psi.

So you're just making stuff up based on your perceptions of what you think matters, and if it doesn't meet your criteria, it's a failure and will certainly be discontinued.

Based on your own statement, the 30 Super Carry must be doing well. Avidity Arms has introduced a gun in 30 Super carry. https://avidityarms.com/pd10-pistol/

Peak chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil spring strength. Recoil force and slide weight dictate recoil spring strength.

Get back you us when you have sales figures, instead of made up stuff.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 74A95

So you're just making stuff up based on your perceptions of what you think matters, and if it doesn't meet your criteria, it's a failure and will certainly be discontinued.

Based on your own statement, the 30 Super Carry must be doing well. Avidity Arms has introduced a gun in 30 Super carry. https://avidityarms.com/pd10-pistol/

Peak chamber pressure has nothing to do with recoil spring strength. Recoil force and slide weight dictate recoil spring strength.

Get back you us when you have sales figures, instead of made up stuff.

I stated my opinion as my opinion and my reasons for my opinions. Last i checked this is a forum in which opinions can be shared and personal attacks are prohibited.

Introducing and actually putting something on the shelves are 2 very different things.

Peak chamber is a force. For every force there is an equal and opposite reaction. There are a lot of factors and that is indeed one of them.

[wild cat mccane]

Oh. The 30SC is absolutely is a dead round. I suspect you don't really want to see the logic that shows it.

[Jaywalker]

I gave up on hold yesterday with S&W customer service - was going to ask for the three RSA part numbers.

For all - thanks. I'm aware that the 30SC is new-ish and taking heat for its supposed irrelevancy. If it racks easier than the 9mm EZ, I would argue that replacing the 380 means it isn't irrelevant - it's just different and is suspect because of that.

I can't find a Shield EZ 30SC locally to test. I can find 9mm and 380. I like the 30SC concept.

As for its being already "dead," I don't much care. The 32 H&R is definitely dead but I still have 400 rounds of factory ammunition and like having six rounds in a Ruger SP-101. I suspect I'd like having 10 rounds in a Shield EZ, but it isn't for me - it's for a person who can sometimes rack an EZ 9mm.

[74A95]

If peak chamber pressure dictated recoil spring strength, then 9mm pistols would have much stronger recoil springs than a 45 ACP. Peak maximum average chamber pressure of the 9mm Luger is 35,000 psi. Peak maximum average chamber pressure of 45 ACP is 21,000 psi. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, the 45 uses stronger recoil springs when in the same gun design, for example, the 1911.

I'm not sure it is a 'personal' attack to ask for actual evidence to support claims. All I see in your response is stuff that somehow fits your criteria, which is not necessarily consistent with facts. Some of your comments are not supported by facts. Last I heard, this forum does prefer the truth over not-true.

[wild cat mccane]

Price.

Price of gun and price of ammo indicate no one is buying. It's in total free fall crash at this point. 30SC HST is currently the cheapest HST option. 30SC Gold Dot is currently the cheapest Gold Dot option. FMJ 30SC is at the same price as Federal 38 special pricing. https://ammoseek.com/ammo/30-super-carry/Federal

New gun in a magic round that just came out is rock bottom price at $250. https://gun.deals/category/hand-guns?caliber=4656

Both are not indicators but pretty much as market proof as a non Federal exec can get; few guns and we have to accept few buyers.

If someone wanted to argue the performance, the consensus is 30SC goes 11-13" in gel at .59 expansion.

Federal 380 Deep appears to out perform the current 30SC HST and Gold Dot personal defense rounds by Speer/Federal. 13"+ consistent at full .51 expansion. This should come as no surprise. Gold Dot and HST 380 are not the best 380 rounds. Step into 9mm and they are the best JHP rounds. 30SC isn't doing what 9mm does to these rounds. It's likely weight, the same reason 115gr Gold Dot isn't on the same level as HST/Gold Dot 124/147gr.

As noted above by OP, the EZ380 is likely easier to use than either the 30SC or 9mm EZ.

Strangely, a Federal 380 load outperforms their own created round that is marketing.

Federal 380 Deep is pure magic in performance. If you look at the bullet it's obviously genius for the struggle to perform 380. Solid copper, spire point tip. Combines everything needed:



If more looked into it, I think the point of 30SC just goes away. Specially since we have the 380 EZ, P365, LCP, LC380 guns and no gun exists on Federal's own stated purpose that the gun frame could be smaller than a 9mm. No 30SC LCP.

[Jaywalker]

I'm seeing some good stuff in the thread, including the HydroShock Deep - hadn't heard of it previously - but we tend to be wandering off course when we discuss how dead the 30 SC is.

I don't care about how dead the 30SC is.

It would be nice if we could avoid variations on that theme. Thanks.

[wild cat mccane]

That's fine. I brought up the RSA is the proof of slide rake weight over someone's feel of sample one at a gun counter. I wouldn't trust someone saying it's easier or not than the 9mm because of the sampling. S&W has made no statement that the EZ 30SC is or isn't easier to rack than the EZ 9mm.

Track down the RSA numbers between 9mm and 30SC and that would be the answer. I don't think that number exists right now. Only could call S&W to find it from what I am searching.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Jaywalker

I'm seeing some good stuff in the thread, including the HydroShock Deep - hadn't heard of it previously - but we tend to be wandering off course when we discuss how dead the 30 SC is.

I don't are about how dead the 30SC is.

It would be nice if we could avoid variations on that theme. Thanks.

I have said what i have to say on 30sc and i stand by it, im done with the topic.

I submitted a contact form to s&w to ask the spring weight on the 3 models. Will see if they responded.

[44 AMP]

That's why some blowback pistols have a hinged tipping barrel. It's much easier to load them that way.

Load and unload. The tipping barrel Berettas are tiny little guns (.22 and .25) which have small slides with not much area to grip which makes racking them difficult for many people. ALSO those guns do not have extractors.

No other guns I'm aware of use that particular system, and the maker only uses it on those models, the rest of the pistols they make don't use the hinged tipping barrel. Ever wonder why??

Everything in a pistol's design is related, but not always directly. Chamber pressure doesn't directly dictate recoil spring strength, mass and speed of the moving parts does. The function of a recoil spring is to return the gun to batter after firing. In some designs it also serves to slow the moving parts as they travel back in recoil. In some designs they don't do that as much as they do in others.

How much, and how many springs you need to compress, as well as the manner they get compressed, along with the shape and size of the gripping surfaces all play a part. AND so does the hand size and strength of the user.

When the same model gun is chambered for two different rounds, I don't see how there will be much difference between them regarding the force needed to load them. A measurable difference, perhaps, but a significant one? That would depend on the user.