Neck sizing with an RCBS FL Die?

[msta999]

I am trying to tighten up my group on the 100 yd target, currently I can put 6 rounds in a 3-4 inch circle, my loads and about the same with factory loads. I am reloading for my older 300 weatherby (Vanguard/wood). My question is, can you neck size with a fl RCBS sizing die? It doesn't look like it to me, but thought I'd check with those who would know.

Thanks.

[Dave R]

Sure. You can neck size with any FL resize die. Just back it off a bit. IIRC, there are official instructions in the die instruction booklet.

[Sport45]

currently I can put 6 rounds in a 3-4 inch circle, my loads and about the same with factory loads.

You can neck size with the FL die, but I wonder if it will help. I'd start by making sure the scope is secure and maybe taking a look at the action bedding and floating the barrel. You should be doing much better than 3-4" with factory ammo.

[Huntbear]

I agree with Sport45. You should be looking at your rifle and scope closely. It should be shooting better groups than that, even with factory ammo.

[Unclenick]

Also check that your crown is perfectly clean and free of indentations or unevenness. Asymmetry is what is actually critical. I have twice seen defective pistol barrels where the bore and rifling were not coaxial, resulting in shallow lands on one side and deep ones on the other. This was to an extreme that was obvious to the naked eye and caused keyholing of bullets, but you could slug your bore and check that land height on the slug is uniform all around.

Try shooting the gun off the bench setting on a sandbag that is way back under the magazine floor plate (put a soft rag on the bag to protect the gun's finish). If pressure from the gun's weight on the front of the stock is causing a problem, that should show it up.

If the groups got better, try setting the gun on the bench with a sandbag again under the magazine floorplate so the front of the stock is overhanging the bench. With straps or a helper holding the buttstock down on the bench, hang a 20 lb weight from the front sling swivel and jam enough 1/2" wide matchbook cardboard slices between the stock and barrel on either side (about 120 degrees apart) or cut them long enough to form a U under the barrel that fits snugly over the position of the sling swivel. Remover the weight. This will cause the stock to load the barrel. See if that upward pressure on the barrel tightens the groups? If so, you have a barrel vibration problem, possibly due to stock contact at one unfortunate place or another?

[msta999]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I did look into what most said and found the barrel was not totally free floating. I used the paper method, where you slide paper around the barrel up and down between the stock and barrel and it would not go more than an inch. I took the barrel off and could see where the barrel was touching two little raised areas (side by side), so I shimmed it some at the screw closest to the barrel and now the paper does slide all the way up and down along the barrel. I laid the rifle down like when I am shooting and I could still slide the paper along the barrel. That and I made up some rounds that where half neck sized and I'm hoping I'll get better results. It was already good enough for hunting, I just would like to see tighter groupings. Like most here said, this rifle should do better than it has. If that doesn't work, I have another scope (A Swift), I got from a friend to try, and see if there are any changes. I did tighten up the screws on the scope before I went to the range today, and ....well I posted the results. When I shoot, I am sitting at a table and using a rest help support the rifle on and I wait a couple minutes between rounds for the barrel to cool down. My first round was good, but then it seems like every round after that starts moving out. If I can, I'll shoot Sat and see if I get better results, with the changes I have made with the ammo and barrel.

[dahermit]

The above advice given likely assumes that you are using proper bench-rest shooting techniques to test for accuracy. Are you using a front rest and a rear bag?

[wncchester]

Neck sizing can/may be an accuracy tweek but it won't make vast differences in such large groups. Successfully doing it with an FL die depends a whole lot on the case shape and how well the die matches the chamber.

When partial FL sizing/neck sizing, you don't want the case body to touch the inner walls of the die.

Don't size the neck below the base of the bullet and you may get by.

[Thirdeye]

Neck sizing is really more for increasing the life of your brass by not working the shoulder every time you size. It's not going to reduce your 4MOA group to <1MOA.

You're limited by something much bigger at this point.

[msta999]

What about freeing up the barrel, the way I did. I am hoping that will make a difference. If I get time, I'll find out today.

[a7mmnut]

I've been shooting the .300 Weatherby in a M700 Classic for about 20 years now. That barrel contact has got to go. There is so much vibration in the stock that any contact at all will greatly influence your barrel dynamics. Just as importantly, the action must not be binding in the stock, as it is much longer than even a standard long action. The front and rear guard screws must be evenly bedded and evenly torqued. I would also get the trigger down to a point where it will surprise you when it goes off. There is no way to get rid of 100% of flinch when shooting an earth shaker. I wound up replacing my factory Remington trigger with a quality Timney, then bedding the action in a Hogue Overmold stock. It will now go 3/4" all day with 150 grainers, but only about 1 1/4" with 165 and 180 gr. factory loads. Factory loading the 180's brought me down to about 1". It's also to range test all your work with the rifle mounted in a floating bench rest, or at least clamped into a Site Vise to eliminate as much human error as possible.

Most of the guys responding gave good advice on mount and ring screw tightening and scope quality. If a scope will move on any bolt action rifle, it will sure move on a .300 Weatherby. I've had great luck with an old Nikon Monarch 4-12X in Redfield mounts that has practically never been adjusted.

As far as reloading, most Weatherby chambers are really loose, or overly free bored. This makes it nearly impossible to seat one of the shorter bullets out far enough to achieve the best accuracy and still work through your magazine at the same time. I'd try different bullet weights, then switch to powders like RL22, H1000 and H4831, or IMR 7828. Always use Federal 215 primers. Good luck, and let us know your results.

-7-

[msta999]

A7,
thanks for the input. As for primers, I am using (the only ones I could find) CCI 250 large rifle mag primers. Anything wrong with them?

I am using R19 with 180 gr Accubond bullets. I also have some surplus 4831, which I made up some last night to take to the range today. I have been thinking of going with maybe a 150 gr bullet, but want to work out this problem first.

"The front and rear guard screws must be evenly bedded and evenly torqued." I'm not sure what your talking about when saying this. I am guessing the screws are the two holding the action in the stock? What is the bedding part?

I'll give what I have a try this after noon and see what happens.

I want to thank everyone for the help, learning as I go here and you guys really help.

[dahermit]

Neck sizing is really more for increasing the life of your brass by not working the shoulder every time you size. It's not going to reduce your 4MOA group to <1MOA.

If you full length size, the cartridge is no longer concentric with the bore. It settles to the bottom of the chamber. Neck sizing is universally used by those in bench rest competition for that reason. Increasing case life is just an additional benefit.

[msta999]

My results after modifing the stock so the barrel is free floating. It looks like that helped alot, my pattern is alot closer on the 100 yd target and this is the 200 yd target. The lower two is where I first hit, the top two is where I hit after a small scope adjustment. My rounds also fit snug in the bore, I could feel just a little tightness when I locked the bolt. These boards are great, I never could have figured this out on my own. Thanks everyone.

What kind of groups are you getting on the 200-300 yd targets? I have really enjoy'd this and am thinking of taking it to the next step.....not sure what that will by yet, but trying for tight groups on the longer shots.

[Sport45]

Looks like you're getting there but two and three shot groups are really meaningless. See what a group of at least five shots looks like at 100 or 200 yards with factory ammo. If it's not significantly less than 2 MOA I recommend taking this question to The Art of the Rifle forum above.

[msta999]

Here is my grouping at 100 yd today, still not where I'd like them to be. This was a different range and the seating was a little to the side, so I have to hold the rifle a little odd. I'm use to having the rifle infront of me, not to the side of me. That may account for some, but by grouping is still in the 3 inch at 100 yd, which I still need to work on. May just take this weatherby to the gun smith and have him check it out for me. At least I'll know if it is the gun or me.

The first shot was just above the bulls eye, closest to the no. 2.

(Notice the little 3 inch yellow and black sticker?? I was expecting to get all my shots on it....not yet.)

[dahermit]

What have been your efforts to work up a load? What veriation in powder charge? .3 grains? .5 grains? .2 grains? Use five shot groups please.

[msta999]

I decided to stick with the Nosler Accubond 180 gr bullets and R-19 powder. I try'd 71, 71.5, 72, 72.5, up to 76, then I figured everything I read says weatherbys like hot loads, so I went with 78 max being 81.5, then the nosler book states the best results for this bullet and the RL-19 powder is 77 gr.

[MADISON]

Special NECK SIZING DIES
I E-Mailed RCBS on December 12, 2004 and received the following response on
December 15, 2004.

From an old #8 Speer Reloading Manual. You and other equipment manufacturers sell special NECK SIZING dies. Does this still apply to your equipment?

Neck Sizing is the term applied to the process of sizing only the neck of a case, with a special die which doesn’t touch the shoulder or body of the case. Neck sizing does eliminate excessive working of the case shoulder and body but, also, may size the neck off-center and leave the body of the case too large to chamber. A better way to reduce excessive working of the case body and shoulder metal is to use a full length sizing die but, use it so it only sizes partially. To do this, the full length sizing die is backed out of the tool so that the shoulder is not touched by the die. This preserves the important head and shoulder dimension and still sizes the neck normally. The body of the case centers the neck in the die and is sized enough to make chambering fairly easy in a bolt action.
Back the die off at least 1/16th of an inch [About one complete turn.]
Many shooters adjust their dies so that only half of the neck is sized. This leaves enough tension to hold the bullet securely for target or varment shooting

The RCBS “Ask the Expert Forum’s response was:
Yes, the necksizers only size the neck of the cases. And yes, there can be run-out after necksizing as there is nothing to support the base of the case - it just sizes the neck. AS FOR PARTIAL SIZING -- Many of our customers choose to do this - but, it is trial and error and sometimes the chamber v.s. die fit does not allow the reloader to partial size - they will not chamber afterwards.

[msta999]

Thanks for the info on the neck sizing die. I was going to get one, but I guess I'll just keep using the FL die and doing a partial.

Easier is Better!

[winelines]

A couple of thoughts.

If I understand your process, you shot 10 rounds waiting a couple of minutes between each shot. Under normal ambient temperature conditions at this time of year, waiting a couple of minutes between rounds on a 300Wy with a sporter barrel for 10 rounds isn't going to help the overheating problem much. I shoot 3 shot groups with my .300 Wby, waiting a minute or two between shots and then wait 15 or 20 min for the gun to cool between groups. In any case, keep track of your barrel temperature as you shoot. You are burning a lot of powder each time you set it off.

With respect to partial FL sizing, I needed to almost fully size a case to get it into my chamber. I think it has something to do with the unique design of the Wby shoulder. This was hard to repeat from session to session. On another forum, I found where the Redding competition shellholders was recommended. There are 5 that vary in height from .002, every .002, up to 010. I have found that this provides a very repeatable partial sizing operation.

[msta999]

Due to my stock coming in contact with the barrel if I tightened the front screw on the action, I built up where the screw comes through the wood and used a type of wood puddy, now my barrel is free floating and the screws are "tight". I also changed out the scope and had the same results as before:



After I fired 6 shots, I talked to another guy, who was assisting another guy, and he asked me what I was loading. I told him it was the Accubond Nosler 180 grain boat tail. He then told me, I should not be using a boat tail bullet in the weatherby. Said, the bullet has to travel about an inch before it hits the riflings and, because of this distance, the boat tail causes the bullet to wobble and will ware out the throat prematurely. I wasn't sure weather to take his advice or not, but I just happened to have a box of weatherby 150 grain, which are not boat tailed and I try'd them on this same target. They are the three holes on the top right, two holes are touching. So I put up another target and this is the result:



The very top hole is without support. So I consider this 6 shots in 1 3/4 inches at 100 yards. Either way it is a big improvement. I didn't know something as simple as the type of bullet could give me this kind of problem.

Now I have to find some bullets to replace my boat tail Accubonds, load them and see what load works best. Figure I'll get some 150 and 180 grain, 150 will be good for deer this fall.

I still have some weatherby bullets left and some Hornady which are not BT, so I'll give them and try and post them to verify these results.

[msta999]

Winelines,

yes over heating the barrel has been a concern, I make sure I can keep my hand on the barrel (without getting burned), before I fire the next round....I'm thinking this may not be good enough, and am going to use another range where I can fire a couple rounds, then put the rifle in the car and grab another and shoot, while the Weatherby cools down. We have a range close by that will let me do this and I have done this in the past.

The partcial neck sizing seems to be working for me, I am sizing almost the hole shell, but not the sholder and I get a good firm feeling, only when I lock the bolt. I'm hoping the next ones I reload with bring my group closer together.

[msta999]

I found out last weekend, from an old guy who trains shooters, the Weatherby doesn't like Tailboat bullets. I confirmed this with two others and was told tailboat bullets will ware out the throat prematurely on weatherbys. I could not get much better than 3 inch groupings at 100 yards and when I heard about the TB, I try'd some Weatherby 150 grain flat bottom bullets (factory rounds) and reduced my group to 1 1/4 inch. So I am going to go with the Hornady 150 gr interlock bullets. My problem is trying to find loads that pertain to this bullet and H4831SC or RL19 powders. I have read that the bullet length and type will effect the accuracy/pressures and would like to know if any of you have come across load data for the Hornady SP Interlock bullet? or just any comment on my finding is welcome.

[rg1]

My .300 Wby MKV would shoot 1/2 or better groups at 100 yards. After setting in the safe for about a year and a trip to the range, groups opened up to 2" or so. Checked scope and mounts, no problems. Checked wood along the barrel and found that the stock had warped so that it was touching about half way up the barrel on the right side. Scraped and relieved the wood for clearance and groups went back to as before. The fit between wood and steel of the barrel is pretty close. My Mark V has a pad on the bottom of the barrel channel just behind the rosewood tip of the stock. The barrel actually rests on this pad. Weatherby said that approximately 16 inch pounds of pressure on this pad between barrel and pad. Don't know about your Vanguard but some Wby stocks have a small pad in the bottom of the barrel channel just back of the front of the stock. Don't remove this pad of wood or at least the last resort. Sometimes adding shims in this area underneath the barrel can improve groups. Stock screw pressure can cause problems. Over torqueing the stock screws or a loose stock screw will effect accuracy. My Weatherby does like the Hornady 150 SP flat based bullets. Also the 180 SP flat based but it actually shoots most bullets well and I've only developed accuracy loads with the 2 Hornady bullets.
It's best to set you dies for the belted case to only barely push the shoulder back. A case headspace gauge set such as Hornadys will help adjusting your dies. If I fully size with contact between the die and shellholder, I only can get about 4 firings before my case show stretching just in front of the belt making them unsafe. Adjust your dies to make the case headspace off the shoulder too rather than just the belt.