no big game rifles?

[stagpanther]

America has magnumitus bad. Big bores have been replaced with super fast, smaller diameter cartridges. I'm seeing more game wounded, and not tracked and collected, than before as a result. I've helped game wardens drag several dead animals out of the woods, some that only went a few hundred yards, but the slob hunters did not check their shots.

I'm not sure I'm following you correctly--are you saying too many people are using inappropriately large calibers, resulting in animals not being hit appropriately and getting away--or are they using inappropriately small high velocity cartridges and not bringing enough gun to the hunt?

[Paul B.]

"Why not? Keep in mind a box of factory ammo can easily cost $100 to $200+ for the the big thumpers; so choose carefully with reloading in mind (unless you're rich and who cares )"

I snagged 12 boxes of Federal brand .416 Rigby ammo for $40 a box. Got them at an estate sale of all things. I'd recently bought a Ruger #1 in the Rigby round and it came with a couple of boxes of ammo plus dies and shell holder. Six boxes were softs and six solids. Guess I should be able to handle and T-rex that should happen to invade my yard.
Prior to getting that deal I'd box two boxes of factory ammo so I could shoot the rifle; $215 each.

A years or so later I snagged one of the uncommon Ruger #1s in .404 Jeffery. Came with a little ammo, dies and shell holder. Nobody in town has any ammo for it so it's been strictly a reloading proposition.

I've had a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H for probably 20 or more years. Frankly, I don't remember when I bought it but it's a lot of fun running 270 gr. cast bullets at about 2100 FPS.

I've always enjoyed shooting the really big boomers but common sense has been taking hold of me. As mush as I enjoy shooting those rifles, at 85 years old the threat of a detached retina or worse is probably something I need to consider.
Paul B.

[stagpanther]

I've always enjoyed shooting the really big boomers but common sense has been taking hold of me. As mush as I enjoy shooting those rifles, at 85 years old the threat of a detached retina or worse is probably something I need to consider.

Wow! My hat's off to you sir! I have to admit I get toothaches and a mild headache sometimes if I shoot 10 really big ones (that's an expensive day right there); I worry more about concussive report than felt recoil.

[natman]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

Then there's always that guy.........

This spring, while scouting for spring turkeys, I parked the old Bronco at a spot that gets a lot of use during deer season. When I stepped out and looked down, there laid a big, straight walled, belted brass case, what the heck......
dang Win .458 mag!: Somebody took their elephant gun deer hunting!!

I did that a couple of times. I used a Hornady 350 grain RN and a well-less than maximum charge, roughly equivalent to a warm 45-70 load. It kicked, but a LOT less than a full house 500 grain load. Took a pig and a buck who were both DRT.

I finally got tired of lugging a 9+lb rifle around for game I could just as well take with a 6 lb 308, so I stopped.

[natman]

Originally Posted by Paul B.

I've had a Ruger #1 in .375 H&H for probably 20 or more years. Frankly, I don't remember when I bought it but it's a lot of fun running 270 gr. cast bullets at about 2100 FPS.

It has to be more fun that running full power 375 loads through it. I had a #1 in 375. I tried both 300 and 270 loads through it. I don't know if it's a question of weight, stock design or what, but recoil was more unpleasant than even my 458. The 458 kicks more but it's a slow push - OK, a BIG slow push - but you can roll with it. The 375 is big AND fast, and there's nothing you can do but take it. The gun soon found a new home.

[Drm50]

I’ve sold most of my big game rifles. Don’t have any magnums now. It’s funny that the only rifle I’ve sold that I regret in a Sako 375H&H that I bought new in 1968. I went to a going out of business sale shopping for a long range bear gun. Wanted 7mm-30cal magnum, long barrel. Nothing in that class left. The owner sold me the 375 with 3 boxes of ammo for $200. Was just going to have a 300 barrel chambered for H&H put on it. In meantime shot the rifle and was impressed with accuracy. I opted to buy 375 dies and load for it. 375H&H would bail a 300gr bullet about same as 30/06 with a 150. I did end up using Speer 235gr as my standard load. Shot a moose with 270gr Win. Silver-tip and it went down like a truck ran over it. Shot several deer with the 235gr Speers. No much different results as most common deer cartridges. Maybe less, no problem killing but not as much meat damage as HV rifle with soft point ammo. I’ve seen game shot with the small bore magnums that were ruined.

[Nathan]

Currently there is a Win 70 catalogued in 458 Win Mag for reasonable money. I had a guy run a 458 Lott reamer in it and rework it for Safari.It is a great, but basic wood Safari rifle under $2000 or so. 458 Lott brass and bullets are expensive, but so much cheaper than anything else Safari!

[darkgael]

I developed a “plinker” load for my .375 H&H. It uses a 200 grain Sierra bullet at about 3000fps. Great fun to shoot.

[Mike Irwin]

I have shot the .460 Weatherby, along with a lot of the traditional dangerous game rounds.

The .460 definitely has a LOT of shove to it. It wasn't particularly pleasant, but it wasn't terrible.

It wasn't even as bad as one .338 Winchester rifle I fired. That rifle was too light, and it didn't recoil, it out and out sucker punched you when you weren't expecting it.

That's the problem with most .338s - the rifles they're chambered in are simply too light. The round should be chambered in rifles in the .375 H&H weight class.

[Mike Irwin]

"I snagged 12 boxes of Federal brand .416 Rigby ammo for $40 a box."

Holy crap, that's like finding a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock or a Colt Gold Cup at a yard sale for $100... The deal of a life time.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

"I snagged 12 boxes of Federal brand .416 Rigby ammo for $40 a box."

Holy crap, that's like finding a Smith & Wesson Triple Lock or a Colt Gold Cup at a yard sale for $100... The deal of a life time.

Damn. I would feel a little dirty after a deal like that!������

[Paul B.]

"It has to be more fun that running full power 375 loads through it. I had a #1 in 375. I tried both 300 and 270 loads through it. I don't know if it's a question of weight, stock design or what, but recoil was more unpleasant than even my 458. The 458 kicks more but it's a slow push - OK, a BIG slow push - but you can roll with it. The 375 is big AND fast, and there's nothing you can do but take it. The gun soon found a new home."

Nat, the big problem with recoil in a Ruger #1 is the width of the butt and that skinny thing Ruger calls a recoil pad are the problem. I don't find the #1 .375 H&H recoil to be much of a problem especially with my cast bullet handload. (RCBS #37-250-FN over IIRC 53.0 gr.H4350) Recoil is more like a stout 30-06 load. Also, one can invest in a Past recoil pad which fits like a shoulder holder and goes a long way toward dampening recoil.
Paul B.

[Red Devil]

Originally Posted by ligonierbill

OK, I'll offer this: 9.3x62 is a nice round, actually useful in North America, but it's not really a "big boy"...

Don Heath - had a different opinion of the 9.3x62mm.

Red

[HiBC]

I'm not sure I'm following you correctly--are you saying too many people are using inappropriately large calibers, resulting in animals not being hit appropriately and getting away--or are they using inappropriately small high velocity cartridges and not bringing enough gun to the hunt?

Its not "Either Or" Both conditions are tough on the game animal.

We want a quick,merciful kill.

Now, I'm making no claim as far as numbers. I do not claim "Most hunters"

I'll say "Some or A Few"

If you get down on the bench with "The Hammer of Thor" and you cannot take a mental picture of the crosshairs in target at recoil, its because your eyes are closed. You are flinching. Its not a character flaw. Its your body taking care of itself.

But it certainly has an effect in shot placement. A well placed shot with a more modest cartridge will kill dead. Dead is dead.
Without debating any "minimum cartridge" idea, most people can manage a 7mm-08 class cartridge and most North American big game requires nothing more.
Many of us have witnessed "sight in day" at a public range. Its not unusual the .300 Magnum and up guys shoot groups bigger than their hand at 100 yds. They would shoot better with a .257 Roberts.
My first choice in most cases is my 257 AI

I enjoy shooting my .375 Chatfield-Taylor. (Necked down .458). Its fine to hunt with 4000+ ft lbs if you want to so long as you can place your shot.

Then there is the other extreme. The guy who wants a pic with his 5 year old Daughter and her first buck. He sets her up with a 22 Hornet. Well,maybe. Its been done. The Hornet is not "sure fire enough deer gun " for anyone.(IMO) I would not want to put a 6 year old through a wounded animal.

Then there is the "Stunt hunter" who will shoot a moose with a 17 HMR just for the "I dunnit" claim.

Whatever. Give the animal a quick kill. Do that,and I dont care what you shoot. Just don't choose stupid. The critter pays for it.

[stagpanther]

Sounds like, in other words, know the limits--all of them.

[STORM2]

A couple of weeks or so ago my LGS took the consignment of a South Gate, Pre-Mark V Weatherby in 300 H&H. Negotiations resulted in my offer being accepted. I knew after realizing the date of the gun, I had to have it! Earlier this year I became smitten with the Mark V and the Roy Weatherby story and history. I left with the gun, a great story and a smile on my face…

I knew ammo would be expensive but I wouldn’t need a bunch, some to get started and a set of dies. I discovered the caliber is tough to feed! A friend gave me 2 boxes for Christmas but I decided I better keep looking for more ammo. This stuff is not finder friendly! Ammoseek said Cabela’s had some “limited quantities” at the Allen (TX) store. I learned limited is = none after I drove to the store.

Now I’m really determined! They were kind enough to check their internal system and found the data said 10 boxes were available at the Ft Worth store. I call, they confirm the 10 boxes are there. I ask if they would hold them for me until I could get there. The girl ask how many I wanted! (I smiled out loud) When I arrived the ammo had my name on it. My story does not end with a great estate sale price story but at least I’ll never need to chase ammo for the old South Gate 300 H&H that I had to have. I don’t hunt any longer but I do love big Weatherby Mark V rifles. Shooting big bore rifles doesn’t necessarily have to do with hunting.

When I was younger I couldn’t afford to collect and shoot Mark V rifles. I paid my dues and I’m gonna shoot big rifles with Steinway piano finished stocks.

[ligonierbill]

Ah, the old Super 30, one of my favorites. If you can find brass, and you can if you're patient, it will do well with most any 308 bullet and IMR-4350 or slower powder. And a classic Weatherby - I'm jealous.

[stagpanther]

After I bought my 7mm STW barrel I quickly realized that nobody had any ammo or brass available for it (duh); same with 8mm rem mag. I ended up buying a bunch of PPU 375 H&H brass which actually was comparatively cheap. A couple of neck downs and one fire-form shot is all it took; still using it today after multiple firings and it does quite well.

[jackstrawIII]

There are only 4 game animals on the planet where a 30-06, or similar cartridge would be underpowered.

JMR casually dropping truth bombs.

[HiBC]

I'm feeling too lazy to do research.

There is a 9.3 cartridge that (I believe) is based on the .404 Jeffreys case. No belt, fat diameter. Will fit a standard length(30-06) action.

For practical purposes,its a match for the .375 H+H.

If my mind is right,the 9.3x62 is a .366 dia version of a 35 Whelen. .358 vs .366 is .008 dia.

Both can be necked from 30-06 brass, both use a 30-06 bolt face.

While you may find an exotic bullet,such as a Woodleigh, for the 9.3 ,you also may find "No Bullets Available".


I advocate the idea that as long as we deliver a quick kill, you reasons for your cartridge choice need no justification. Your preference will do.

You don't need my approval.

Blondes,Redheads,or silver grey hair? (Lady Clairol makes all possible) .

Bourbon,Scotch,or Irish Whiskey?

Whatever works for you-. If you want a 9.3 x62, no need to convince me.

IMO,in the time we had barrels of 98 Mausers at the hardware store, to neck an 8x57 up to .338 diameter and Ackley Improve it may not have made sense, but it was an interesting idea. No,I never did.

After a lot of pondering over the years, and loving one 35 Whelen,

I'd choose a 338-06 over the 9.3x62 or the 35 Whelen.

Why? Bullet availabiliy. Bore to case ratio. Trajectory. The .338-06 is more likely to be a "standard" for dies and reamers.

All that is splitting hairs and shades of grey. It does not matter.

Its like who you are attracted to. Be free to get excited and enjoy.

[natman]

Originally Posted by HiBC

I'd choose a 338-06 over the 9.3x62 or the 35 Whelen.

Why? Bullet availabiliy. Bore to case ratio. Trajectory. The .338-06 is more likely to be a "standard" for dies and reamers.

Sorry, but no. RCBS dies for standard production 35 Whelen and 9.3x62 are $41.99. Dies for the wildcat 338-06 are $75.99

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by natman

Dies for the wildcat 338-06 are $75.99

Dies might be more expensive, but the .338-06 isn't a wildcat. A-Square standardized the cartridge back in 1998. Weatherby even produced rifles in it for a time.

In addition to HiBC's point it's probably faster to get a .338 caliber barrel. Barrel makers are more likely to have .338 blanks in stock over 9.3 and .358 bores. Simply because .338 is more popular with long range shooting than 9.3 and .358 calibers.

Originally Posted by jackstrawIII

JMR casually dropping truth bombs.

Actually the .30-06 has probably killed every big game animal on the planet. So have many other cartridges considered less powerful. In fact I read a few years ago the most common round used by poachers in Africa of Big 5 game is 7.62X39 in an AK-47.

I realize poaching and hunting are two different things and not related. My point is most cartridges a capable of being lethal on big game, even elephant, buffalo, rhino, hippo, and large bears. However if you want more reaction out of game animals "more" is usually better. More velocity, bore size, and bullet weight or a combination of the above.

[Paul B.]

"Dies might be more expensive, but the .338-06 isn't a wildcat. A-Square standardized the cartridge back in 1998. Weatherby even produced rifles in it for a time."

Apparently there is a difference between the A-Square 338-06 and the Nosler version. I read somewhere that there is some difference in the shoulder. I wish I could find the source but it was early on when Nosler brought out their version of the cartridge. Maybe it turned out to a bit of nothing and maybe there was something to it. Probably a good source of information my be from RCBS.

There must be a real reason for RCBS to keep the price up on those dies. Could be there is a bit of difference between the two versions and RCBS has to diddle with the machinery to make one or the other.

Me? I'll just stick to my .35 Whelen and call it good
Paul B.

[taylorce1]

Originally Posted by Paul B.

Apparently there is a difference between the A-Square 338-06 and the Nosler version. I read somewhere that there is some difference in the shoulder. I wish I could find the source but it was early on when Nosler brought out their version of the cartridge.

There is no difference in Nosler ammo and the .338-06 A-Square. In fact Nosler manufactured the Weatherby branded .338-06 ammunition. What you are referencing is the .280 AI differences between the Wildcat and Nosler's version.

I think RCBS keeps the die prices high as the .338-06 was a short lived commercial round. Factory rifles are still being manufactured in .35 Whelen and 9.3X62, as well as factory ammunition. There is just a higher probability that they'll sell more product, allowing them to keep the price lower.

[HiBC]

Just to be clear, I highly valued the 35 Whelen I built. I gave it up for economic reasons. I did not imagine any shortcomings . There is certainly no reason to abandon a good 35 Whelen for a 338-06.

If I were starting over, clean sheet of paper, frankly, these days a 30-06 seems just fine....
But if I had the itch for the mid-bore, my "shade of grey" preference would be 338-06.
Nosler # 5 manual says the 225gr Partition, BC .454, can Max load be driven to
2575 fps with IMR 4350
The 200/210 gr Noslers will do 2650+ ( Max) with RE-15 and IMR4320
Thats enough velocity for reasonable hunting ranges.

In fairness to the 9.3x62,it flings a 250 gr Ballistic Tip (Max) at 2525 fps and a BC of .494
And a 286 gr Partition will exceed 2400 fps with a max load of RE-15.

Thats a bit more "thump" by the numbers.

And the 35 Whelen is right in there,max loads exceeding 2500 fps with 225/250 gr bullets.

Pick one and enjoy!

I stand corrected on die prices. That $30 might tip the deal!!

A couple of Big Mac meals there!!