1911 for patrol duty?

[Micahweeks]

So, it's requal time again. That means it's time for officers to bring their newest guns they would like to carry on duty to the range. But, standing around with officers of various ages, I noticed an interesting trend. The 20 somethings all seem enamored with 1911s (never mind that they can't shoot them well enough to qualify with them). The 30 somethings (my crowd) pretty much agree that it isn't ideal for uniform patrol, although we wouldn't mind it for plain clothes work. The 40+ crowd thinks it is fine for patrol but that none of us are responsible enough to maintain it well enough if we carried it.

What do you guys think? With so many high capacity, low maintenance, ultra-reliable, easy to replace guns out there, does the 1911 still have a place on a 24 year old rookie's patrol belt?

[NJgunowner]

If they can't qualify then the answer is NO. Pretty much a no brainer.

I don't know if I'd want to carry full size 1911 plus all the other crap they have to carry around on their belts. But hey, there are some great 1911's out there so if they can use it correctly why not?

[Micahweeks]

Oh, don't worry. If they don't pass the course (and several won't), they'll be taking the course again with whatever they shot at the last requal.

[Dino.]

Let me start by saying that the 1911 is by far my favorite handgun model.
However, I would consider it too heavy for daily carry and very limited in it's capacity compared to other models being offered today.

FWIW, I'm 44 years old.

[Mrgunsngear]

I don't see how you can't shoot a 1911 well but be able to shoot a Glock/M&P/XD/FNX/ect... well.

If the gun is reliable and they shoot better with it, they should be able to use it IMO. I am a former LEO myself and in my experience, a high capacity gun isn't all that important in 97%+ situations. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shot placement is usally more important, especially since we are all responsible for every round.

[irish52084]

I like a 1911 as much as the next guy, but if you can't qualify with it then it's a no go.

Personally if I'm gonna carry something in the size and weight range of a steel frame 5" 1911, I want more rounds. That said, a polymer pistol would probably be my choice and I'd lean towards an XDM or M&P in whatever caliber is acceptable. Less weight, more capacity and easier maintenance are generally in favor of newer guns over the 1911.

[Micahweeks]

You're spot on, Plouffedaddy. Our course has a long, timed section that is easier to pass if you don't have to do a lot of reloading. That's really the only benefit. The high caps are just easier to get faster times with.

[micromontenegro]

I would think that if they can't qualify with a 1911, they can't qualify period.

[Carry_24/7]

So good guys can't win shootouts anymore without DA triggers and 25 round magazines?

[WC145]

If they want to switch from whatever they're carrying to a 1911 more power to them as long as they can handle the weapon and qual with it.

Our local S.O. switched from G21s to Kimber 1911s last year and after 3 days of transition training everyone shot better than they had with the Glocks that they'd carried for years.

I'm 49, I carry a full size 1911 on duty and CCO size 1911 off duty, I also compete in IDPA CDP with my duty gun and gear (and ESP with a 2nd 9mm 1911 as well). I'm very comfortable with the 1911 and my ability to put it to use.
I don't find the weight to be a problem but my duty rig is rather spartan thanks to my job - gun, spare mags, cuffs, ASP - so I don't haul around as much crap as a lot of cops.
I don't think that capacity is as much of an issue as being able to put the rounds you have on target and I do that better with a 1911 than any hi-cap polymer gun I've owned/carried so my choice is a no brainer.

[mrray13]

I've seen a few attempt to go 1911 after toting polymer around, most don't make it first time, and our quals are some of the easiest going. I've also seen the flip side, where a 1911 guy tries to go poly and can't pass first try. There is a difference, but most figure it out during the second run.

I have carried a 1911 on duty, and on duty, wasn't much of an issue as to carrying it. Duty rig spread the weight out fine. Currently carrying a hicap metal pistol in .45acp, and the only time I notice it's weight is when I'm standing around doing nothing.

I'm in with the crowd that says if you can qualify with it, carry it.

[irish52084]

WC145: Capacity isn't an issue until it is. It may be rare that it comes into play, but it is a huge factor when it does. It may not be the end all be all, but more is better in the case of capacity. I like to think of it like this: IF the 1911 maintained it's current single stack dimensions, yet held 13+1 rounds it would be an overwhelming favorite, even more so than it already is. 13 beats 8 no matter who's doing the math.

[BigJimP]

Capacity isn't an issue for civilians ...we should be centered around "defense" not a shootout at the ok corral...so 1911's are fine. 1911's are the gun of my generation - being over 60 ...and I think they're great guns - if well made and well tuned - and maintained.

For Law Enforcement officers - its a different issue...and capacity may be the difference between going home or not ...now maybe not often / but even if it matters 2% of the time ...why not carry something with some capacity in it.

Budgets being what they are in most municipalities ...they need to stay with one gun ...and shoot and qualify with it. Most dept's just don't have the ammo budgets for training that they used to have - and its a shame. If I were a LEO, I'd probably carry something light --that was a double stack - depending on what options they gave me. If it were possible - I might look at the Wilson Spec Ops ...double stack in 9mm wtih 16 +1. Its a hybrid - that would give me the best of both worlds.

[Don P]

The 40+ crowd thinks it is fine for patrol but that none of us are responsible enough to maintain it well enough if we carried it.

What is so different about the 1911 that it cannot be maintained?
Are you folks maintaining your plastic guns? How hard is it to field strip a semi-auto????? All part of the cleaning process, no/yes?

[10mm4ever]

Alot of this depends on the probability of defending yourself against multiple assailants. If I were on the outskirts of a big city, in a rundown neighborhood where small gangs roamed the streets, the 1911 would be out(much as I love it)and one of my Beretta 92's would be my best friend. If you're in a small town with a low crime rate and at the outside, might have to deal with one or two armed fellons, the 1911 is an excellent choice. If I made up my mind that I wanted an "enhanced" 1911 with excellent "out of the box" reliability and accuracy for less than a grand, I'd get an S&W and wouldnt look back. The 1911 will always have "a place" because nothing engineered since can compete with its excellent combo of trigger, weight, balance, reliability and fight stopping ability(there's a reason that they still cant make them fast enough to meet market demands). In an overwhelming number of cases, shot placement, not capacity, is the deciding factor. Just one opinion.

[irish52084]

Yes, shot placement matters, but if I can place all my rounds on target in the same time frame with a 1911 or a higher capacity pistol, why not give the edge to the higher capacity pistol?

The popularity of the 1911 in America has a lot to do with nostalgia and the many custom "clones" of the 1911 as it does with performance. If we were to compare original 1911 designs, as first adopted by the military, to the first generation XD for example, the performance, capacity, sights, reliability and durability of the XD would be better on average than the 1911. Move up to the later 1911A! with "improvements" made to satisfy the military and do the same comparison and the XD still outclasses the 1911.

This is where the custom 1911 clone starts to show up, you get all these upgrades as "stock" items and everyone thinks that's how the 1911 was designed and it's simply not true. The original fit and finish of most 1911's wasn't spectacular, the sights were terrible, no extended beavertail etc... point is they aren't that great as originally designed when compared to a modern offering. Triggers on 1911's can be pretty terrible out of the box as well, and they aren't usually that good on non custom models. When you're buying a $1000+ 1911, you're usually buying a tuned platform with many upgrades over the original.

[RsqVet]

I find the observation that folks switching platforms often fail first time out. Suggests a few things to me. 1 these people obviously not spending enough time with the new weapon prior to qual. 2. If I had to guess a fair number of those who fail first time out on the new platform are looking for equiptment to give an edge that only more training and practice can regardless of platform.

[Mrgunsngear]

I agree on the capacity issue; I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with carrying a 1911 for duty. I myself would much rather a Glock 17 or something along those lines but I wouldn't see the 1911 as an issue if that's what someone wanted to use. I can shoot both reasonably well so I'd opt for a higher capacity gun. Some people have issues shooting double action/striker fired weapons well so, for them, maybe the 1911 is a better option.

[Carry_24/7]

WC145; WHOA!!!

Did you say LEOs went to Kimber 1911s?!?

Listening to many posters here, I thought everybody's Kimber except mine, and everyone else I know that has one jams every 2 rounds

[WC145]

WC145: Capacity isn't an issue until it is. It may be rare that it comes into play, but it is a huge factor when it does. It may not be the end all be all, but more is better in the case of capacity. I like to think of it like this: IF the 1911 maintained it's current single stack dimensions, yet held 13+1 rounds it would be an overwhelming favorite, even more so than it already is. 13 beats 8 no matter who's doing the math.

Obviously you can carry what you want or what your issued. Since capacity is a big deal to you then, by all means, carry something else. I prefer a 1911, in spite of it's capacity, so I carry one.

The popularity of the 1911 in America has a lot to do with nostalgia and the many custom "clones" of the 1911 as it does with performance. If we were to compare original 1911 designs, as first adopted by the military, to the first generation XD for example, the performance, capacity, sights, reliability and durability of the XD would be better on average than the 1911. Move up to the later 1911A! with "improvements" made to satisfy the military and do the same comparison and the XD still outclasses the 1911.

This is where the custom 1911 clone starts to show up, you get all these upgrades as "stock" items and everyone thinks that's how the 1911 was designed and it's simply not true. The original fit and finish of most 1911's wasn't spectacular, the sights were terrible, no extended beavertail etc... point is they aren't that great as originally designed when compared to a modern offering. Triggers on 1911's can be pretty terrible out of the box as well, and they aren't usually that good on non custom models. When you're buying a $1000+ 1911, you're usually buying a tuned platform with many upgrades over the original.

I'm not sure what your argument is here. I don't think anyone is advocating carrying GI style 1911s. Just as the XD has benefitted from modern technology, materials, sights, machining, and workmanship, so has the 1911. A quality modern 1911 is at least as reliable and accurate as an XD or Glock or M&P, with better ergonomics and a better trigger. The 1911 in it's 21st century incarnation is just as viable for LE, military, or self defense as any other gun.

WC145; WHOA!!!

Did you say LEOs went to Kimber 1911s?!?

Listening to many posters here, I thought everybody's Kimber except mine, and everyone else I know that has one jams every 2 rounds

Yeah, go figure. I qualify and train with those guys and their Kimbers seem to run pretty good. Fewer issues than they had with the Glocks.
I'm sticking with my Springfield but if they wanted to give me one of theirs I wouldn't say no.

[10mm4ever]

irish-I dont feel that the 1911 has ever been "outclassed", per se. First off, original 1911's werent quite as sloppily fit as most seem to think. Most who've had the chance to handle an original GI, experienced a tool that has been beat to death and fired god knows how many times. Yes, they will tend to be a bit "clangy" and yet regardless of many years of use and abuse, they still work. Find an original gov't 1911 specimen in excellent condition and you'd be surprised at how snug the fitting was! The XD(or any other pistol made of cheap plastic and stamped metal)will never have the trigger, the muzzle heft or the balance of a GI 1911/1911A1 and will NOT beat it in terms of reliability in harsh extremes. If you dont believe me, throw both in a campfire and count to ten. What we see as stock on most "Enhanced" 1911's today(extended safeties, beavertails, lightened triggers, etc), began with competition shooters decades ago and made an extremely shootable platform even better(just as many of todays refinements on automobiles were first developed for racing). As originally designed, what made the XD so "great"? If memory serves, they had issues with broken locking blocks and rust. In terms of being "proven", the 1911 went through two world wars, Korea, Vietnam and is STILL the #1 choice of several elite groups that actually have a say in what they can carry into harms way(such as the FBI's HRT). It's "been there and done that" more than every plastic and stamped metal pistol combined! Speaking for myself, it's not about some "emotional tie", it's about being the single most proven combat pistol in history.

[irish52084]

The comparison to the XD was made at random, insert glock or M&P if you so wish. My point was that comparing a common $400-500 polymer service pistol to a $1000+ upgraded 1911 is rather ridiculous. I never said the 1911 can't be a good service option, just that comparing a stock style 1911 to a stock polymer service type pistol is the best way to compare, not comparing a custom 1911 to a stock poly gun.

We can talk about subjective things like ergonomics and feel all day, but that doesn't make a legit comparison. Capabilities, capacity, reliability, ease of maintenance, cost and cost of ownership are better comparisons.

I also never said that all early 1911's were sloppy, I said the fit and finish on most was not spectacular. Blued pistols don't hold up as well as some of the newer finishes. I've owned and loved plenty of 1911's, but in their original form they are not up to par with most modern service pistols.

[TXGunNut]

One of my earliest duty guns was a custom Colt Series 70 Government Model, same one I carried when I turmed in my badge 25 years later. I carried a few other guns now and then, even carried a revolver from time to time. All were very good guns. At my department 1911's were are likely still are very popular. I'm a little biased but I don't think there's a better duty gun...for me, anyway.
Round count? capacity? I was taught to make the first rounds count.

[Dave T]

I was a deputy sheriff in the 1970s and 1980s. I switched to a 1911 (MK IV Series 70 Government Model) after completing my probationary period. Coming from a 6 shot revolver the 1911 was a step up in capacity (LOL). The weight never bothered me, but this was long before the days of carrying a radio on your belt (only white shirts got those) or stun-guns. Some carried Mace...until they figured out it mostly made the fight last longer (LOL again).

When I became a detective I switched to a Commander (called a Lt Wt Commander today). I never felt poorly armed or lacking in fire power, but then I spent a lot of time shooting my duty guns on my own time.

Seems the bad guys take more stopping, or maybe it's the gang thing that makes everyone think they have to have a hi-cap gun and lots of spare magazines. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with more ammo, just that I never felt poorly armed with 8 in the gun, or later 9 with the advent of 8-round mags. YMMV!

Dave

[Micahweeks]

Let me clarify some things that I think aren't fully understood here.

High cap: As previously stated, this only helps in the timed shooting portions of the course as it cuts down on reloads.

Ultra-reliable: It has always been my impression that 1911s with good mags are reliable in the government size but that more compact versions are not.

High-maintenance: What little I do know about the 1911 is this. It has to be cleaned/lubed more than my Glock. Even 1911 fans have told me that.

Not responsible enough: We have fine young men and women, but they aren't real shooters. Their only frame of reference is the Glock they got at the academy. Our older officers think that gives them a poor impression of what it would take to maintain a 1911, and having just started getting in to the platform, I think I agree.

Also, I feel it necessary to point out that I'm in Mississippi. Our academy is in Pearl, only a few miles from where the Pearl High School shooting took place. That incident lead to much more rigorous courses being taught on active shooters and general firearms proficiency. That's why the course has some pretty stringent requirements. I don't think these guys can make the times with a 1911 simply because they're spoiled on 15 or 20 round duty guns.

I just felt I should clarify these issues as they seemed to stir up quite a few people.