Primers

harrierdjh · December 27, 2009, 09:46 PM

I have seen post's about people using small rifle and large rifle primers for small and large pistols. Is that possible? What happenes when you use rifle promers in pistols and vise-versa? I figured use comon sense and use the ones directed for thoes types of ammo.

Gary Wells · December 27, 2009, 10:23 PM

Not a good idea at all. Primer cups are different thicknesses. At least one and maybe both is / are different in height, too.

reloader28 · December 27, 2009, 10:36 PM

Pistol primers in rifles...

In my personal testing, as long as you keep your pressures down to mid load range or less they work perfectly fine in rifles with no accuracy or speed change.
You do have to watch the pressures tho, cause pistol primers are thinner and made for less pressure.
Alota guys (including me) use them for cast loads.

Rifle primers in pistols...

The rifle primer is thicker and made for more pressure so you might not have a hard enough hammer spring to make it fire.
The rifle primers are also longer, so you might have to uniform the primer pocket a little to make it fit better.
I havent had to do this yet ,but my brother uses LR in his 45 Rugar for his heavy loads and also his 500 S/W (I think). He also had to uniform the pockets cause he had to clean them after every firing or the primer wouldnt seat deep enough.

This is just from personal testing, but someone else might have different results.

Colorado Redneck · December 27, 2009, 10:48 PM

I have used small pistol primers in 22 hornet loads. They work fine. normally don't do that but last summer when stuff was hard to find I loaded 100 rounds and they shot fine. And I would do it again if things were short. Maybe other calibers won't work.

Don P · December 27, 2009, 11:27 PM

Ah yes, stupidity at its finest. What the hell why don't we put the primer manufactures on notice that there is no longer any need to differentiate between large and small rifle and pistol primers and we'll just use whatever fits and slam it home

. To each there own and while we're at it lets just throw the load data away and load what ever we feel is right for the load

.
Just because it worked THIS TIME does not mean its the right thing to do.

Primers are made for very distinct uses as in large and small pistol primers and should be used as such. Let me know where and when you folks are shooting so I can be somewhere else.

FrankenMauser · December 28, 2009, 02:22 PM

Large Pistol and Large Rifle primers are not made to the same dimensions, like SP/SR. (Not including cup thickness.)
Large Rifle primers are 'taller' than their pistol counter part. When seated in pistol brass; the primers will protrude beyond the case head. When Large Pistol primers are seated in rifle brass; they are recessed far enough to cause ignition problems in some guns.

Generally speaking:
Pistol primers in rifle cartridges will 'flow' much more, and at much lower pressures than rifle primers. ...If they don't get pierced, first.

Rifle primers in pistol cartridges don't show pressure signs as easily as pistol primers. If you only watch your primers for pressure signs... you're going to have a bad day.

Some exceptions:
.22 Hornet is often loaded with Small Pistol primers, rather than rifle primers. Reloaders have found that the lower case capacity (and burn rate of the powder) responds better to the pistol primer; and often increases accuracy. The Hornet is a lower pressure cartridge than most centerfire rifle cartridges. However, the reloader must be sure to keep the pressures below the failure point of the primers.

Competition handgunners often push their loads beyond the designed maximums for the cartridge. As such, they often have to use rifle primers to prevent piercing. When the cartridges (such as .45 Auto) require a large primer; it means case modifications are required. Either the primer pocket must be reamed deeper, or a rifle case must be trimmed and reamed to size (such as turning .30-06/.308 into .45 Auto).

Unless you have plenty of experienced with reloading, and an actual need to swap primers; it's generally not a good idea. Most shooters run into more problems than they avoid. (Such as avoiding a "shortage" by using what they have on hand. Primers are no where near as hard to find, as most members of this forum tend to portray.)
{Name a brand and type of common primer, and I'll guarantee at least 15k of each, within 20 miles of me. I often wonder how they expect to find primers by sitting in front of their computer all day... when 3 million other people are doing the same thing.}

bluetopper · December 28, 2009, 04:27 PM

I'm with Don P on this one!

Why not just use the primer you're supposed to people.

Colorado Redneck · December 28, 2009, 10:44 PM

Why Don--Thanks for calling me stupid. Took this right to the sewer, didn't cha.

After discussing the use of small pistol primers for 22 hornet with my local gunsmith, then I looked on the web. Many sources talked about small pistol primers working fine in 22 hornet. I don't recommend using them for anything else, but was sharing my experience.

Since you seem to know everything, then after this I will ask you before doing anything.:barf:

Gary Wells · December 28, 2009, 10:59 PM

Large rifle primers are .009 longer than large pistol primers, and that's a lot to stick out past the case head.

reloader28 · December 29, 2009, 01:25 AM

Colorado

I'm pretty sure Don was talking about me, but I havent wasted my time responding.

Don

I guess I must have dreamed those test rounds. Thank you for waking me.

MODS

If I did something wrong and in violation or did something other than just stating personal results, than please delete my post.

I was only posting personal results for a test that I was looking for answers for at one time and didnt find them anywhere on the internet.

Jim243 · December 29, 2009, 01:48 AM

Reloader28 and Colorado You may think your trying to be helpfull, but the truth is your recommendations could cause slamfires and excessive pressures on max loads, and those that do not have your expertise in reloading and might take a unsafe shotcut do to lack of supplies, could cause harm to themselves or those shooting next to them. Having stood next to one that did blow up their revolver 15 feet from me, I have to agree with Don. Let me know when you go to the range, I'll stay at home or go to a different range.

I really don't care if you hurt yourself, but don't take me with you.

Jim

O yes, don't bother wearing those silly seat belts while you are driving. You may think they are not needed either and are just silly safety rules.

hodaka · December 29, 2009, 08:01 AM

Guys, I think you are overstating the dangers of substitution. I for one have pretty much given up small pistol primers in everything. Small rifle are exactly the same size, and in my experience, perform exactly the same in nearly all of my handguns. I say nearly as my P7 has a light hammer strike and is not 100% at firing them. Every other revolver or pistol work fine.

I started using them years ago, before availability was an issue. I simply found it more efficent in stocking supplies. I suspect with the past year's problems many others have done the same. I would not use small pistol in a rifle, although I would not worry much about the hornet as it is a low pressure round. Also, large rifle and large pistol are different sizes and not suitable for substitution.

Only my opinion, you guys can obviously do whatever you wish but it is considerably less risky than your seat belt analogy. Regards.

reloader28 · December 29, 2009, 10:52 AM

I suppose all you woodworkers leave the plastic shield on the table saw? Right.

You use goggles when hammering a nail? You betcha.

I'm sure that everyone goes by the book when you're reloading ammo. Please. Give me a break. I dont know 1 single person and I'm sure you dont either.

If you went by the book you'd be making basically factory ammo and wasting your time reloading. You will never know your gun or ammo.

We dont all trim to min or even max case length. Sometimes its longer. We dont all seat our bullets to factory o.a.l.. Some of us seat to the rifling, some shorter. Even in the Sierra book, half the captions under the pictures show guys with an animal killed with an over max load.

So I went one step farther. So what? When Osamabama got in and we couldn't get primers, everyone was asking what the difference was and I didn't know and couldn't find it on the internet anywhere either. So I found out.

I'm not telling anyone to use them other than as directed, just stating that if need be, yes. I also clearly said you had to watch your pressures and couldn't load above mid range. You will get pierced primers. I use them with cast loads cause I can and I'm not using up my good ones. Pistols are a different matter and if they do seat good enough and if it detonates it could have high pressures. We have not had that problem yet.

I agree, there are dangers ,tho a little over blown. Very few people have tested primers, just quote what they read from the books. Then they make custom trimmed, fit and loaded ammo and cus me for going one step farther and "throwing away the books." I've read about WAY more dangerous stuff than this on TFL.

The OP said he just wanted to know. Didn't say he was going to do it. I didn't tell him to do it, just what I knew cause I was there once. Only being able to load low end loads would stop most reloaders anyway I think.

I should add that I am talking about large primers. I have not had need to test small primers.

Anyway ,I'm sorry this is so long. Feels long. I've been trying to type for over an hour. I'm slooowww.

Don P · December 29, 2009, 11:21 AM

Didn't mean to insult anyone here. As stated we should be exercising caution when dealing with reloads for all the new folks. My whole point is, why do the manufactures make large and small primers for pistols and rifles? I am going to go out on a limb here and say they must know something we don't or is it a conspiracy to charge more money for a particular primer. As stated again because someone did it and it worked a newcomer to reloading may just try something he/she thinks will work and it doesn't then they have a problem and hopefully there is no personal injury. I am stating this because I have been warned by the mods about suppling info here and being a little vague so as to the info being looked at 2 different ways or could be misunderstood.

wallask · December 29, 2009, 11:22 AM

I shoot .223 in my 14" Contender which of course is a pistol, thus I can use small pistol primers? When I reload .357 for my lever action carbine, I should use small rifle primers because it's a rifle? We could this discuss this subject till doomsday. Reloading can bring up so many questions, some with dumb answers/reults.
By the way, I reload cast bullets for my .223 using 3 gr of Unique and small pistol primers. Makes a neat, quiet, plinking load for the backyard.

reloader28 · December 29, 2009, 12:05 PM

Don

I've thought about it more. You are probly right that I shouldn't have posted this. In MY mind, the OP was simply asking a question and I was simply answering from my experiences. I didn't see any intentions, just curiosity.

I just wanted to share some of my experiences. I knew an argument would probly happen with this, but did it anyway. I dont go around loading like this whenever I feel like. I wanted to know what would happen and couldn't find the answers. I found out myself.

Harrierdjh

I did not intend for you to use this info to reload with. I was just merely trying to answer your question. Thats what TFL is for. I dont always load backwards loads like this, I just wanted to know same as you. Now you know and you dont have to try it.

**Shane Tuttle** · December 29, 2009, 01:25 PM

Now that the debate has cooled a bit, let's all take one more deep slow breath and understand it's very difficult to convey nonverbal communications through a monitor.

I'm sure everyone is here to provide discussion in earnest to help out the OP. Right?

Colorado Redneck · December 29, 2009, 10:25 PM

Don--Yeah, I kinda took that personally, and probably should have looked at it from the standpoint that forum readers can take info and misuse it. So, lets move on. Lesson learned.

jimkim · December 29, 2009, 11:16 PM

Many years ago some reloading manuals suggested using small rifle primers for magnum rounds. Today, the only powder company, that I know of, that suggests using rifle primers in pistol cartridges is Lapua. They only recommend it with a couple of cartridges though. http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=1195

I think this subject may have been covered before.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=301484

Don P · December 30, 2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Don--Yeah, I kinda took that personally, and probably should have looked at it from the standpoint that forum readers can take info and misuse it. So, lets move on. Lesson learned.

My apologies.

Quote:

I've thought about it more. You are probly right that I shouldn't have posted this. In MY mind, the OP was simply asking a question and I was simply answering from my experiences. I didn't see any intentions, just curiosity.

My apologies.

I too must use more tact when posting. I absolutely agree, moving on.

Colorado Redneck · December 30, 2009, 02:01 PM

Don--

December 27, 2009, 09:46 PM	#1
harrierdjh Member Join Date: November 1, 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 19	Primers I have seen post's about people using small rifle and large rifle primers for small and large pistols. Is that possible? What happenes when you use rifle promers in pistols and vise-versa? I figured use comon sense and use the ones directed for thoes types of ammo. __________________ A Bullet Always Tells The Truth- It Never Lies Incoming Fire Has The Right of Way

December 27, 2009, 10:36 PM	#3
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Pistol primers in rifles... In my personal testing, as long as you keep your pressures down to mid load range or less they work perfectly fine in rifles with no accuracy or speed change. You do have to watch the pressures tho, cause pistol primers are thinner and made for less pressure. Alota guys (including me) use them for cast loads. Rifle primers in pistols... The rifle primer is thicker and made for more pressure so you might not have a hard enough hammer spring to make it fire. The rifle primers are also longer, so you might have to uniform the primer pocket a little to make it fit better. I havent had to do this yet ,but my brother uses LR in his 45 Rugar for his heavy loads and also his 500 S/W (I think). He also had to uniform the pockets cause he had to clean them after every firing or the primer wouldnt seat deep enough. This is just from personal testing, but someone else might have different results. Last edited by reloader28; December 27, 2009 at 11:03 PM.

December 27, 2009, 11:27 PM	#5
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Ah yes, stupidity at its finest. What the hell why don't we put the primer manufactures on notice that there is no longer any need to differentiate between large and small rifle and pistol primers and we'll just use whatever fits and slam it home. To each there own and while we're at it lets just throw the load data away and load what ever we feel is right for the load. Just because it worked THIS TIME does not mean its the right thing to do. Primers are made for very distinct uses as in large and small pistol primers and should be used as such. Let me know where and when you folks are shooting so I can be somewhere else. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 28, 2009, 02:22 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,446	Large Pistol and Large Rifle primers are not made to the same dimensions, like SP/SR. (Not including cup thickness.) Large Rifle primers are 'taller' than their pistol counter part. When seated in pistol brass; the primers will protrude beyond the case head. When Large Pistol primers are seated in rifle brass; they are recessed far enough to cause ignition problems in some guns. Generally speaking: Pistol primers in rifle cartridges will 'flow' much more, and at much lower pressures than rifle primers. ...If they don't get pierced, first. Rifle primers in pistol cartridges don't show pressure signs as easily as pistol primers. If you only watch your primers for pressure signs... you're going to have a bad day. Some exceptions: .22 Hornet is often loaded with Small Pistol primers, rather than rifle primers. Reloaders have found that the lower case capacity (and burn rate of the powder) responds better to the pistol primer; and often increases accuracy. The Hornet is a lower pressure cartridge than most centerfire rifle cartridges. However, the reloader must be sure to keep the pressures below the failure point of the primers. Competition handgunners often push their loads beyond the designed maximums for the cartridge. As such, they often have to use rifle primers to prevent piercing. When the cartridges (such as .45 Auto) require a large primer; it means case modifications are required. Either the primer pocket must be reamed deeper, or a rifle case must be trimmed and reamed to size (such as turning .30-06/.308 into .45 Auto). Unless you have plenty of experienced with reloading, and an actual need to swap primers; it's generally not a good idea. Most shooters run into more problems than they avoid. (Such as avoiding a "shortage" by using what they have on hand. Primers are no where near as hard to find, as most members of this forum tend to portray.) {Name a brand and type of common primer, and I'll guarantee at least 15k of each, within 20 miles of me. I often wonder how they expect to find primers by sitting in front of their computer all day... when 3 million other people are doing the same thing.} __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

December 29, 2009, 01:25 AM	#10
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Colorado I'm pretty sure Don was talking about me, but I havent wasted my time responding. Don I guess I must have dreamed those test rounds. Thank you for waking me. MODS If I did something wrong and in violation or did something other than just stating personal results, than please delete my post. I was only posting personal results for a test that I was looking for answers for at one time and didnt find them anywhere on the internet. Last edited by reloader28; December 29, 2009 at 01:44 AM.

December 27, 2009, 10:23 PM	#2
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	Not a good idea at all. Primer cups are different thicknesses. At least one and maybe both is / are different in height, too.

December 27, 2009, 10:48 PM	#4
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	I have used small pistol primers in 22 hornet loads. They work fine. normally don't do that but last summer when stuff was hard to find I loaded 100 rounds and they shot fine. And I would do it again if things were short. Maybe other calibers won't work.

December 28, 2009, 04:27 PM	#7
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	I'm with Don P on this one! Why not just use the primer you're supposed to people.

December 28, 2009, 10:44 PM	#8
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Why Don--Thanks for calling me stupid. Took this right to the sewer, didn't cha. After discussing the use of small pistol primers for 22 hornet with my local gunsmith, then I looked on the web. Many sources talked about small pistol primers working fine in 22 hornet. I don't recommend using them for anything else, but was sharing my experience. Since you seem to know everything, then after this I will ask you before doing anything.:barf:

December 28, 2009, 10:59 PM	#9
Gary Wells Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Posts: 180	Large rifle primers are .009 longer than large pistol primers, and that's a lot to stick out past the case head.

December 29, 2009, 01:48 AM	#11
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Reloader28 and Colorado You may think your trying to be helpfull, but the truth is your recommendations could cause slamfires and excessive pressures on max loads, and those that do not have your expertise in reloading and might take a unsafe shotcut do to lack of supplies, could cause harm to themselves or those shooting next to them. Having stood next to one that did blow up their revolver 15 feet from me, I have to agree with Don. Let me know when you go to the range, I'll stay at home or go to a different range. I really don't care if you hurt yourself, but don't take me with you. Jim O yes, don't bother wearing those silly seat belts while you are driving. You may think they are not needed either and are just silly safety rules. Last edited by Jim243; December 29, 2009 at 02:01 AM.

December 29, 2009, 08:01 AM	#12
hodaka Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,010	Guys, I think you are overstating the dangers of substitution. I for one have pretty much given up small pistol primers in everything. Small rifle are exactly the same size, and in my experience, perform exactly the same in nearly all of my handguns. I say nearly as my P7 has a light hammer strike and is not 100% at firing them. Every other revolver or pistol work fine. I started using them years ago, before availability was an issue. I simply found it more efficent in stocking supplies. I suspect with the past year's problems many others have done the same. I would not use small pistol in a rifle, although I would not worry much about the hornet as it is a low pressure round. Also, large rifle and large pistol are different sizes and not suitable for substitution. Only my opinion, you guys can obviously do whatever you wish but it is considerably less risky than your seat belt analogy. Regards.

December 29, 2009, 10:52 AM	#13
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I suppose all you woodworkers leave the plastic shield on the table saw? Right. You use goggles when hammering a nail? You betcha. I'm sure that everyone goes by the book when you're reloading ammo. Please. Give me a break. I dont know 1 single person and I'm sure you dont either. If you went by the book you'd be making basically factory ammo and wasting your time reloading. You will never know your gun or ammo. We dont all trim to min or even max case length. Sometimes its longer. We dont all seat our bullets to factory o.a.l.. Some of us seat to the rifling, some shorter. Even in the Sierra book, half the captions under the pictures show guys with an animal killed with an over max load. So I went one step farther. So what? When Osamabama got in and we couldn't get primers, everyone was asking what the difference was and I didn't know and couldn't find it on the internet anywhere either. So I found out. I'm not telling anyone to use them other than as directed, just stating that if need be, yes. I also clearly said you had to watch your pressures and couldn't load above mid range. You will get pierced primers. I use them with cast loads cause I can and I'm not using up my good ones. Pistols are a different matter and if they do seat good enough and if it detonates it could have high pressures. We have not had that problem yet. I agree, there are dangers ,tho a little over blown. Very few people have tested primers, just quote what they read from the books. Then they make custom trimmed, fit and loaded ammo and cus me for going one step farther and "throwing away the books." I've read about WAY more dangerous stuff than this on TFL. The OP said he just wanted to know. Didn't say he was going to do it. I didn't tell him to do it, just what I knew cause I was there once. Only being able to load low end loads would stop most reloaders anyway I think. I should add that I am talking about large primers. I have not had need to test small primers. Anyway ,I'm sorry this is so long. Feels long. I've been trying to type for over an hour. I'm slooowww. Last edited by reloader28; December 29, 2009 at 11:17 AM.

December 29, 2009, 11:21 AM	#14
Don P Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Swamp dweller Posts: 6,187	Didn't mean to insult anyone here. As stated we should be exercising caution when dealing with reloads for all the new folks. My whole point is, why do the manufactures make large and small primers for pistols and rifles? I am going to go out on a limb here and say they must know something we don't or is it a conspiracy to charge more money for a particular primer. As stated again because someone did it and it worked a newcomer to reloading may just try something he/she thinks will work and it doesn't then they have a problem and hopefully there is no personal injury. I am stating this because I have been warned by the mods about suppling info here and being a little vague so as to the info being looked at 2 different ways or could be misunderstood. __________________ *NRA Life Member, NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, NRA Certified Pistol Instructor,, USPSA & Steel Challange NROI Range Officer, ICORE Range Officer, ,MAG 40 Graduate* *As you are, I once was, As I am, You will be.*

December 29, 2009, 11:22 AM	#15
wallask Junior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 14	I shoot .223 in my 14" Contender which of course is a pistol, thus I can use small pistol primers? When I reload .357 for my lever action carbine, I should use small rifle primers because it's a rifle? We could this discuss this subject till doomsday. Reloading can bring up so many questions, some with dumb answers/reults. By the way, I reload cast bullets for my .223 using 3 gr of Unique and small pistol primers. Makes a neat, quiet, plinking load for the backyard.

December 29, 2009, 12:05 PM	#16
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	Don I've thought about it more. You are probly right that I shouldn't have posted this. In MY mind, the OP was simply asking a question and I was simply answering from my experiences. I didn't see any intentions, just curiosity. I just wanted to share some of my experiences. I knew an argument would probly happen with this, but did it anyway. I dont go around loading like this whenever I feel like. I wanted to know what would happen and couldn't find the answers. I found out myself. Harrierdjh I did not intend for you to use this info to reload with. I was just merely trying to answer your question. Thats what TFL is for. I dont always load backwards loads like this, I just wanted to know same as you. Now you know and you dont have to try it. Last edited by reloader28; December 29, 2009 at 11:44 PM.

December 29, 2009, 01:25 PM	#17
Shane Tuttle Staff Join Date: November 28, 2005 Location: Montana Posts: 9,443	Now that the debate has cooled a bit, let's all take one more deep slow breath and understand it's very difficult to convey nonverbal communications through a monitor. I'm sure everyone is here to provide discussion in earnest to help out the OP. Right? __________________ If it were up to me, the word "got" would be deleted from the English language. Posting and YOU: http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting

December 29, 2009, 10:25 PM	#18
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Don--Yeah, I kinda took that personally, and probably should have looked at it from the standpoint that forum readers can take info and misuse it. So, lets move on. Lesson learned.

December 29, 2009, 11:16 PM	#19
jimkim Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2008 Location: middle GA Posts: 326	Many years ago some reloading manuals suggested using small rifle primers for magnum rounds. Today, the only powder company, that I know of, that suggests using rifle primers in pistol cartridges is Lapua. They only recommend it with a couple of cartridges though. http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=1195 I think this subject may have been covered before. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=301484 __________________ Jan. 4, 2007 gasoline $2.10 gal....HMMM?

December 30, 2009, 02:01 PM	#21
Colorado Redneck Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2008 Location: Northeast Colorado Posts: 1,993	Don--