Accuracy load for 1858 Rem. New Army ?

ConRich · June 14, 2015, 09:41 PM

I'm new to cap & ball type revolvers, have a Pietta 1858 New Army and looking for accuracy.

So far I've loaded .451" store bought balls and .454 " balls that I cast with a Lee mold, I used #10 Remington caps and 20 grs. of Pyrodex P, a wool wad, and enough COW to get the ball close to the face of the cylinder.

What can I do to reduce the size of my groups ?

Has anyone used mini balls, or REAL bullets in this type gun, and if so, what were the results.

Any advice will be appreciated,

Rich

DD4lifeusmc · June 15, 2015, 08:05 AM

Quote:

I'm new to cap & ball type revolvers, have a Pietta 1858 New Army and looking for accuracy.

So far I've loaded .451" store bought balls and .454 " balls that I cast with a Lee mold, I used #10 Remington caps and 20 grs. of Pyrodex P, a wool wad, and enough COW to get the ball close to the face of the cylinder.

What can I do to reduce the size of my groups ?

Has anyone used mini balls, or REAL bullets in this type gun, and if so, what were the results.

Any advice will be appreciated,

Rich

Jump up to 25 gr to start with, and forget the filler. IMHO it is a waste.
It is inert and does nothing to improve power or velocity. And you aren't really saving any money.
Once at the 25 or even 30gr load, the ball will be traveling a tad faster and should stabilize better.
From there it is practice practice practice.
Once you are on paper, and get reasonably dialed in, go to a smaller target.
My target is a piece 4x4 (3 1/2 x 3 1/2) about 6 inches long, mounted vertically on a iron rod.
I hit way more than I miss. a soup can works well too. place in on the rod, open end down.
Stay with the round balls until you get reasonably proficient. Then there are numerous conicals you can try.
I custom cast 195 and 190 gr ones and prefer the 190's. More info??? PM me.

maillemaker · June 15, 2015, 09:51 AM

I conducted studies using my revolvers with and without filler, and found that using filler to keep the ball seated closer to the cylinder face always produced superior accuracy to not doing so.

Steve

Erwan · June 15, 2015, 03:02 PM

In the first I will ask you to excuse my bad english.

I know nothing about Pyro. and other T7ven (we can't use it where I live). Normally I put 18.5gr BP Swiss Nr1 and one 38SP case of corn flour for .451" bullet. This bullet is at the higt of the cylinder, a bit grease and it works good enough for me...
There is an relatively old picture of a New Pietta Remington Army at his first day shooting.

I'm not sure the link will work right: http://www.cjoint.com/doc/15_06/EFpt...sai-Pietta.jpg

13 bullets like for the MLAIC and the 3 bad doesn't count....

Best regards.

Erwan

kwhi43 · June 15, 2015, 07:07 PM

Filler is what we all use here at the Nationals for accuracy and have been for
a good number of years. We all shoot here for one thing only, accuracy.
Everything here has been tried . Velocity doesn't mean a thing.

ConRich · June 15, 2015, 07:46 PM

OK, I do use COW and a wad to bring the ball up close to the face of the cylinder. With a .454" ball, and Pyrodex P, approximately how much powder should it take to get me in the ballpark ?

I'm using 20 grs. now and getting 8 - 10" groups shooting offhand at 15 yds.
I can usually shoot 1-1/2" to 2" groups with my centerfire pistols at that range.

I read somewhere that real black powder would yield better accuracy than the substitutes like Pyrodex, if that's true, please tell me, I'll change.

I've also heard claims that mini ball and conical type bullets would yield better accuracy than round balls. Any comments on that ?

Any advice will be appreciated TIA,
Rich

kwhi43 · June 15, 2015, 07:59 PM

I can only tell you what holds the revolver National records and what it takes to
win matches. Round ball, .454, Black Powder 16-20 grains Goex or Swiss FFF
Cream-of-wheat enough to get the ball to the face of the cylinder. There are
other things involved but this is what the guns requirements are. If anyone
disagrees with this please come to Friendship. And show us a better way.
We will listen.

ConRich · June 15, 2015, 09:02 PM

Thanks, that is just what I needed to know. I've been reloading and shooting matches for many years now, all centerfire, so I know what you mean about the many other things that are involved, I'll sort those out in the learning process as this cap & ball game is very new to me.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction, I really appreciate your advise.

Rich

Erwan · June 16, 2015, 04:14 AM

I use FFFg BP at 25m (27 yards) for training and championships.
I can't say anything about black powder substitutes, but an Pietta or an Uberti works good with only 15 to 18 grains of swiss FFFg (Swiss bottle called Swiss Nr1) and sufficient filling like corn meal or semolina for the precision: bullet top of the cylinder and with a bit grease...

Erwan.

noelf2 · June 16, 2015, 09:56 AM

Something to consider is the timing of the gun. I've had timing issues with new pietta revolvers, especially with extra cylinders. Check chamber/barrel alignment.

rodwhaincamo · June 16, 2015, 10:53 AM

My pistols are meant as sidearms for hunting, and so I require performance as well figuring something about equivalent to a .44 Spl is minimum and .45 Colt is preferred.

My Pietta Remington NMA does best with 30 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 powder with my 170 and 195 grn WFN bullets or even a ball. I get about 3.5" groups offhand at 15 yds.

I have considered trying felt wads to brin my projectiles closer to the face of the cylinder. Who wouldn't want better accuracy if it can easily be had?

kwhi43 · June 16, 2015, 03:29 PM

The "10" ring is just a little over 3 inches in diameter. So this group is around 11/2 inches dia. Center to center.

rodwhaincamo · June 16, 2015, 04:30 PM

Excellent shooting!

ConRich · June 16, 2015, 07:26 PM

That is some great shooting, the target says it all.

kwhi43 · June 16, 2015, 08:10 PM

I am at the Nationals at this moment . Been here since Friday. Going to shoot
the 100 yd. pistol match tomorrow which is Wednesday. Wish me luck.
Phil

ConRich · June 17, 2015, 07:17 AM

Good morning Phil,
Wishing you luck at the Nationals, let us know how you do.

Rich

maillemaker · June 17, 2015, 03:34 PM

Quote:

This is what I am talking about at 25 yards 10 shots

Is that off hand or off a bench or what?

Steve

2damnold4this · June 17, 2015, 05:03 PM

I'm no expert but Goex fff has always done better for me than any black powder substitute.

Erwan · June 17, 2015, 05:23 PM

Sorry if you don't understand what I'm writing: I'm no more american that the last time... :-/

Good evening

Quote:

The "10" ring is just a little over 3 inches in diameter.

The ten zone in USA is Ø3" ? Here te same zone is only Ø1" (25,4mm) and the largest ring of the ten is only 51mm for 25 and 50 meters...

In the picture I gave you can see nine bullets in the size of the zone of 51mm with an revolver used for the first day and first hour without banc: free hand (we says it like that where I live)...
That's why I have say that the accuracy is enough for me: that gives 94/100 points at 25 meters for the first shoot of this revolver. An sufficient shooting to go in national championship (in may I did 97/100 with an Artax).

For this first day I don't found it pretty good but promissing: normally my revolver is a remington Army .44" Artax an not a Pietta...

Please if somebody who can tell me the dimensions for the shooting target 25 and 50 meters in USA ? It is not urgent: now the summer is comming and I'm at the 100 meters stand with a Sharps .54" paper cartridges Pedersoli till september...

Best regards.

Erwan.

Edit: for me too, I use only Swiss 1 FFFg BP...

kwhi43 · June 17, 2015, 06:34 PM

That target was shot offhand . That means only one hand holding the pistol out
Un-surpported.

kwhi43 · June 17, 2015, 06:44 PM

Well I shot the 100 yard pistol match today. This is shot one handed holding
the pistol out un-supported . My wife was spotting for me . I fired the first shot
and she said just keep holding like that. After the match and I got my target, I
seen that the first shot was the "x" Anyway I have first place as of today. But
I won't really know If I won the match until Sunday when it's all over.
This scores a 81 X . I think I will win it. Hope so. I'm 72 and don't shoot near
what I used to. I used my little 32 caplock with 15 grains of Swiss No. 1 pistol
powder and Hornady "0" buckshot for the ball. Here is the target. The 10 ring
is 3 inches in dia. Pretty small at 100 yards.

ConRich · June 17, 2015, 08:10 PM

That is amazing, offhand at 100 yds. with a BP pistol, I'd be very proud of that target !

Rich

maillemaker · June 18, 2015, 10:58 AM

That's amazing. My guns won't shoot that well off a bench.

What kind of work did you have done on that gun?

Steve

stubbicatt · June 19, 2015, 10:35 AM

Wow. Excellent accuracy. I couldn't do that from a bench. No matter the work on your revolver, you are indeed a "hard holder."

Impressive.

Phill_Jay_D · June 21, 2015, 06:36 AM

At first I will say Hello to all users because I'm just now registered.
Sorry for my english I will do my best to write correctly.
So, hello

[email protected] - amazing
Erwan - Great score - 97 if I calculate good.

O the begining when I start with BP guns i bought Davide Pedersoli Remington Pattern .44 , very accurate revolver, but for that amount of money I expect good quality. This revolver was far from good quality.
First day on shooting range, first cylinder was OK all in black, next cylinder, I start loading procedure. Suddenly the link between loading lever and plunger was just broke. ( Revolver was on guarantee so seller replace loading lever )
After this only one cylinder I noticed that around cylinder is a marking, scratch from the cylinder break which is jumping to early on cylinder and scratching surface of cylinder. This has nothing to accuracy but looking bad.
I hope You understand my disgust. And a few issues like setup of front sight.

Anyway this revolver is very accurate.
I try many loads of BP with 3Fg and 4Fg Swiss Black Powder.
I followed advice of Hungary, Balash and I was trying his loads of BP.
Lowest load which I trying was 5 grains of 4Fg Swiss BP - all bullets in ten ring size.

Now I have Remington New Model Army Shooters .44 which is closest replica to oryginal Remington Revolver and its also very accurate but requires bigger size of round ball .464. Cylinder chambers are in approx .458 size

June 15, 2015, 03:02 PM	#4
Erwan Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2015 Location: There where you wouldn't Posts: 5	In the first I will ask you to excuse my bad english. I know nothing about Pyro. and other T7ven (we can't use it where I live). Normally I put 18.5gr BP Swiss Nr1 and one 38SP case of corn flour for .451" bullet. This bullet is at the higt of the cylinder, a bit grease and it works good enough for me... There is an relatively old picture of a New Pietta Remington Army at his first day shooting. I'm not sure the link will work right: http://www.cjoint.com/doc/15_06/EFpt...sai-Pietta.jpg 13 bullets like for the MLAIC and the 3 bad doesn't count.... Best regards. Erwan Last edited by Erwan; June 15, 2015 at 03:16 PM.

June 15, 2015, 09:02 PM	#8
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	Thanks Kwhi Thanks, that is just what I needed to know. I've been reloading and shooting matches for many years now, all centerfire, so I know what you mean about the many other things that are involved, I'll sort those out in the learning process as this cap & ball game is very new to me. Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction, I really appreciate your advise. Rich

June 16, 2015, 03:29 PM	#12
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	This is what I am talking about at 25 yards 10 shots The "10" ring is just a little over 3 inches in diameter. So this group is around 11/2 inches dia. Center to center. Last edited by kwhi43; June 16, 2015 at 03:34 PM.

June 17, 2015, 06:34 PM	#20
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Steve That target was shot offhand . That means only one hand holding the pistol out Un-surpported.

June 17, 2015, 08:10 PM	#22
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	Excellent That is amazing, offhand at 100 yds. with a BP pistol, I'd be very proud of that target ! Rich

June 14, 2015, 09:41 PM	#1
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	Accuracy load for 1858 Rem. New Army ? I'm new to cap & ball type revolvers, have a Pietta 1858 New Army and looking for accuracy. So far I've loaded .451" store bought balls and .454 " balls that I cast with a Lee mold, I used #10 Remington caps and 20 grs. of Pyrodex P, a wool wad, and enough COW to get the ball close to the face of the cylinder. What can I do to reduce the size of my groups ? Has anyone used mini balls, or REAL bullets in this type gun, and if so, what were the results. Any advice will be appreciated, Rich

June 15, 2015, 09:51 AM	#3
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I conducted studies using my revolvers with and without filler, and found that using filler to keep the ball seated closer to the cylinder face always produced superior accuracy to not doing so. Steve

June 15, 2015, 07:07 PM	#5
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Filler is what we all use here at the Nationals for accuracy and have been for a good number of years. We all shoot here for one thing only, accuracy. Everything here has been tried . Velocity doesn't mean a thing.

June 15, 2015, 07:46 PM	#6
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	OK, I do use COW and a wad to bring the ball up close to the face of the cylinder. With a .454" ball, and Pyrodex P, approximately how much powder should it take to get me in the ballpark ? I'm using 20 grs. now and getting 8 - 10" groups shooting offhand at 15 yds. I can usually shoot 1-1/2" to 2" groups with my centerfire pistols at that range. I read somewhere that real black powder would yield better accuracy than the substitutes like Pyrodex, if that's true, please tell me, I'll change. I've also heard claims that mini ball and conical type bullets would yield better accuracy than round balls. Any comments on that ? Any advice will be appreciated TIA, Rich

June 15, 2015, 07:59 PM	#7
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I can only tell you what holds the revolver National records and what it takes to win matches. Round ball, .454, Black Powder 16-20 grains Goex or Swiss FFF Cream-of-wheat enough to get the ball to the face of the cylinder. There are other things involved but this is what the guns requirements are. If anyone disagrees with this please come to Friendship. And show us a better way. We will listen.

June 16, 2015, 04:14 AM	#9
Erwan Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2015 Location: There where you wouldn't Posts: 5	I use FFFg BP at 25m (27 yards) for training and championships. I can't say anything about black powder substitutes, but an Pietta or an Uberti works good with only 15 to 18 grains of swiss FFFg (Swiss bottle called Swiss Nr1) and sufficient filling like corn meal or semolina for the precision: bullet top of the cylinder and with a bit grease... Erwan.

June 16, 2015, 09:56 AM	#10
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Something to consider is the timing of the gun. I've had timing issues with new pietta revolvers, especially with extra cylinders. Check chamber/barrel alignment. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

June 16, 2015, 10:53 AM	#11
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	My pistols are meant as sidearms for hunting, and so I require performance as well figuring something about equivalent to a .44 Spl is minimum and .45 Colt is preferred. My Pietta Remington NMA does best with 30 grns of 3F Olde Eynsford or Triple 7 powder with my 170 and 195 grn WFN bullets or even a ball. I get about 3.5" groups offhand at 15 yds. I have considered trying felt wads to brin my projectiles closer to the face of the cylinder. Who wouldn't want better accuracy if it can easily be had?

June 16, 2015, 04:30 PM	#13
rodwhaincamo Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,246	Excellent shooting!

June 16, 2015, 07:26 PM	#14
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	That is some great shooting, the target says it all.

June 16, 2015, 08:10 PM	#15
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I am at the Nationals at this moment . Been here since Friday. Going to shoot the 100 yd. pistol match tomorrow which is Wednesday. Wish me luck. Phil

June 17, 2015, 07:17 AM	#16
ConRich Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2004 Location: Maine Posts: 299	Good morning Phil, Wishing you luck at the Nationals, let us know how you do. Rich

June 17, 2015, 05:03 PM	#18
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	I'm no expert but Goex fff has always done better for me than any black powder substitute.

June 17, 2015, 06:44 PM	#21
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Well I shot the 100 yard pistol match today. This is shot one handed holding the pistol out un-supported . My wife was spotting for me . I fired the first shot and she said just keep holding like that. After the match and I got my target, I seen that the first shot was the "x" Anyway I have first place as of today. But I won't really know If I won the match until Sunday when it's all over. This scores a 81 X . I think I will win it. Hope so. I'm 72 and don't shoot near what I used to. I used my little 32 caplock with 15 grains of Swiss No. 1 pistol powder and Hornady "0" buckshot for the ball. Here is the target. The 10 ring is 3 inches in dia. Pretty small at 100 yards.

June 18, 2015, 10:58 AM	#23
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	That's amazing. My guns won't shoot that well off a bench. What kind of work did you have done on that gun? Steve

June 19, 2015, 10:35 AM	#24
stubbicatt Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Posts: 1,707	Wow. Excellent accuracy. I couldn't do that from a bench. No matter the work on your revolver, you are indeed a "hard holder." Impressive.

June 21, 2015, 06:36 AM	#25
Phill_Jay_D Member Join Date: June 20, 2015 Location: The old continent - Europe Posts: 32	At first I will say Hello to all users because I'm just now registered. Sorry for my english I will do my best to write correctly. So, hello [email protected] - amazing Erwan - Great score - 97 if I calculate good. O the begining when I start with BP guns i bought Davide Pedersoli Remington Pattern .44 , very accurate revolver, but for that amount of money I expect good quality. This revolver was far from good quality. First day on shooting range, first cylinder was OK all in black, next cylinder, I start loading procedure. Suddenly the link between loading lever and plunger was just broke. ( Revolver was on guarantee so seller replace loading lever ) After this only one cylinder I noticed that around cylinder is a marking, scratch from the cylinder break which is jumping to early on cylinder and scratching surface of cylinder. This has nothing to accuracy but looking bad. I hope You understand my disgust. And a few issues like setup of front sight. Anyway this revolver is very accurate. I try many loads of BP with 3Fg and 4Fg Swiss Black Powder. I followed advice of Hungary, Balash and I was trying his loads of BP. Lowest load which I trying was 5 grains of 4Fg Swiss BP - all bullets in ten ring size. Now I have Remington New Model Army Shooters .44 which is closest replica to oryginal Remington Revolver and its also very accurate but requires bigger size of round ball .464. Cylinder chambers are in approx .458 size