Have I been practicing all wrong?

[Brit]

One reality, of living in my wonderful adopted Country, the US of A.

I had to leave a reaction, bought and paid for, in Liverpool UK.

This being lashing out sometimes! Americans of the Law Abiding types, who sport a broken nose, it is nearly always a sport injury!

In my Home town? Normally contact with a fist, or forehead (Liverpool Kiss!)the fuel for this activity, beer.

As I was born in a Pub, and spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool, I broke quite a few noses, and mine is still straight.

Violence is violence, with weapons or without, the stepping up to the plate with a Glock 19 on your belt, and elevating a walk in the cool evening to your vehicle in a parking lot, to a life threatening attack by one or two strangers, criminals?

Is, to me, very difficult with no previous experience with any form of fighting.

Flowing in to an attack, the only difference being which tools will be selected from your tool box! Is based on your fighting spirit, the tool selection is based on your skill with these tools.

[zincwarrior]

Nonetheless, learning something is a process that takes place over time. For everything we do, for everything we learn, there is always we haven't yet learned what would be of use to us today. And I'm sure all of us older types have the occasional "if I only knew then what I know now" moment.

And in the learning of various types of physical and mental skills, the effective learning of some skills will depend on having laid a foundation of other, more basic, skills. That's simply reality.

Nothing is keeping you from starting in the next 24 hours. Start practicing drawing and dry firing for 30 minutes a day a couple of times a week until you get comfortable drawing/firing, and moving. One can practice the quick side step/draw/shoot (from cover) at home. Watch Oprah, it will motivate you.

One reality, of living in my wonderful adopted Country, the US of A.

I had to leave a reaction, bought and paid for, in Liverpool UK.

This being lashing out sometimes! Americans of the Law Abiding types, who sport a broken nose, it is nearly always a sport injury!

In my Home town? Normally contact with a fist, or forehead (Liverpool Kiss!)the fuel for this activity, beer.

As I was born in a Pub, and spent 5 years as a Bouncer in Clubs in Liverpool, I broke quite a few noses, and mine is still straight.

Violence is violence, with weapons or without, the stepping up to the plate with a Glock 19 on your belt, and elevating a walk in the cool evening to your vehicle in a parking lot, to a life threatening attack by one or two strangers, criminals?

Is, to me, very difficult with no previous experience with any form of fighting.

Flowing in to an attack, the only difference being which tools will be selected from your tool box! Is based on your fighting spirit, the tool selection is based on your skill with these tools.

sorry but er...what?

[DMK]

Frankly, going to a firearms class to learn to run better is a terribly inefficient training choice.

Nobody said anything about running. You won't be able outrun a bullet.

Being able to hit what you are shooting at is a basic, fundamental skill. You have no business shooting at people if you have no idea where the bullets will go, no matter how justified you are in defending yourself. I've seen new shooters get ahead of themselves and miss VERY easy shots because they let the simple stress of being on a clock get to them.

I agree completely.

However, go back up to my original post and read the link I provided.

I don't think I'm communicating well. I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

[Sharkbite]

I don't think I'm communicating well. I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

And i dont think anybody else is saying that either. BUT, you need to start somewhere. As a professional weapons and tactics trainer, i subscribe to the "crawl, walk, run" philosophy.

All "advanced" skills build on the fundamentals. If you cant draw and put a round/rounds where you want them while standing still on a static range, how the bleep can you expect to do it while moving laterally to cover dynamically??

A safe and efficient draw stroke is best taught without the additional thought process of having to move. Once a student can efficiently draw and put 2-3 round COM at a REASONABLE speed...only then should the concept of moving during the draw even be thought about.

You dont see olympic athletes begining their training process at max effort. And i submit that a gunfight is the ULTIMATE COMPETITION!!!! There are no silver medals given.

[James K]

No, I don't suggest going to a firearms class to learn to run for cover. But part of that "awareness" is knowing that to your left are parked cars, to your right a wall, to your front a light pole, all of which can provide cover.

I still don't understand the thinking that I have to carry a large protractor and make sure my feet are at a perfect 45 degree angle before I can return fire or even draw my gun. It seems to me that such "advanced" skills do not enhance the basics, they destroy the basics. Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Jim

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by DMK

...I'm not saying that one should not learn to shoot well. But what I am saying is standing there in a perfect static stance and making tiny groups in bullseye targets is not realistic to self defense shooting.

Except that standing there and learning to shoot good groups, although not necessarily in a Bullseye stance, is part of learning to shoot well. The thing is that for meaningful self defense training there are other things one needs to learn as well.

Originally Posted by James K

...Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Do you know of any such a class? Can you tell us what class it is and who teaches it? I've taken a bunch of classes, but I've never had a class anything at all like that.

[Deaf Smith]

Since I teach the martial arts we have such stances as the horse stance, L stance, front stance, cat stance...

Well yes, you are supposed to put your feet in particular spots when doing forms.

Why? To learn the technique really well.

But we teach on the street you ADAPT your stance to the circumstances.

Yes adapt. You don't stay in the traditional horse stance, nor L stance.

Now you may for a second or so use the stance as best as the ground will permit, but then move on and transition to the more mobile front stance (not unlike a boxers.)

The same goes for shooting stances and ways to hold the gun. You adapt them to the circumstances.

But you should know the stances well and understand them (same with sights and trigger control.)

The key is learning to improvise. Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

Now one wonders where that came from?

Deaf

[pax]

I still don't understand the thinking that I have to carry a large protractor and make sure my feet are at a perfect 45 degree angle before I can return fire or even draw my gun. It seems to me that such "advanced" skills do not enhance the basics, they destroy the basics. Classes that concentrate on the tiny details (your feet must be at 45°, not 44° or 46°) to the point where the basics are downplayed or, worse, denigrated and "unlearned" do not, it seems to me, serve the student well.

Can you tell me who teaches that class?

It's actually a serious question. Please do name names and schools.

pax

[WVsig]

The best advice I ever got at a class about stance was to stand naturally. To stand in a comfortable manner. The same principle was applied to moving with a gun. Walk or run as you would normally. You do not have to reinvent the wheel. Take a natural stance which for me is an isosceles. Depending on terrain a foot might be in front of the other.

I will stress that I believe that the key to shooting well in any situation is fundamentals. If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation.

This is paramount. It is more important than anything else you will ever learn IMHO. Again everything else builds on that foundation. Marksmanship is the base of the pyramid. If your marksmanship is poor under stress the building will crumble.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by WVsig

The best advice I ever got at a class about stance was to stand naturally....

But again, what comes naturally isn't necessarily the best idea.

We teach a monthly NRA Basic Handgun class. Most students have absolutely no prior experience with guns. And almost all of our students lean back when holding the gun out in firing position, whether in a Weaver or an Isosceles. That is their natural stance holding a handgun, and it is not a good ides.

We try to correct that. We show how a more forward stance is stronger and allows them to better manage recoil. A more forward stance is also better balanced and would facilitate movement if movement is necessary or desirable.

We work with basic principles, not rigid rules. So we show students how to stand in a manner that is strong, flexible and balanced. We show certain fundamental characteristics of both a good Weaver and a good Isosceles.

If one is well grounded in the basic principles of a good firing stance -- strong, flexible and balanced -- he can improvise and adapt as needed to suit the circumstances.

You can see this if you watch good USPSA and IDPA shooters. They will instantly assume an unconventional shooting position appropriate to the situation, e. g., barricades, obstacles, uneven ground, stairs, etc. But whatever they have to do to accommodate the circumstances, their posture and stance will reflect good, basic principles.

Originally Posted by WVsig

...If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation....

I agree, and that's been my experience in training and in competition.

[pax]

Originally Posted by WVsig

...If you have a fundamental foundation of proper stance and good trigger control it will allow you to shoot your best in any situation....

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

I agree, and that's been my experience in training and in competition.

That makes three of us.

What I have found is that when people spend a lot of time practicing a BAD use of the trigger -- that quick jerk that "comes naturally" to most new shooters -- those folks can spend a lot of time doing the tactical peepee dance, and feel like they're really getting somewhere. It looks cool. It's a lot of fun. It gets your heart rate moving and it feels 'real' in a way that putting together the boring building blocks of the fundamentals never does.

But they still can't hit the target.

Worse than that, all those reps of the bad trigger press did do something for them: it very firmly engrained, under stress, a BAD habit. Practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent. When we practice doing something wrong 602 times, guess what? On the 603rd time, we'll probably do exactly the same wrong thing we've been doing all along.

So to throw back a question that came up earlier in the thread: what if that guy's gunfight happens tonight? He still can't shoot. He can dance pretty well, but if his problem can only be solved by efficient, effective return fire, he's not up to the task. Worse than that, he's going to end up spending a lot more time and energy erasing that deeply engrained bad habit than he would ever have needed to spend had he taken the time o build good habits in the first place.

And this is why I say that after watching hundreds if not thousands of shooters take different paths through the training forest over the past 16 years, I come down firmly on the side of crawl, walk, run.

• Learn an effective, repeatable way to hold the gun. Hold it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to load the gun. Load it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to thrust the gun out so that you can see the sights. Do it that way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to use the sights. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn some alternate ways to use the sights. THEN learn some alternate ways to align the muzzle with the target. Do those things the same way, every time you do them.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to press the trigger, including a good follow through. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn how to do it faster or at greater distance. Do those things the same way, every time.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot from behind cover. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn some alternate ways to do it. THEN learn when to use those alternatives.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot one-handed with your dominant hand. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn how to do the same thing with your non-dominant hand.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to shoot a moving target. Do it that way, every time. (THEN learn other ways to do the same thing, and when to apply those skills. Do those skills the same way, every time.)
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to engage a target while you're moving. Do it the same way, every time.
  .
• Learn an effective, repeatable way to engage a moving target while you're also moving, under stress, while making good decisions and keeping track of your environment -- and without stepping into traffic because you deeply engrained a completely unconscious and thoughtless sidestep without first freeing up enough brain cells that you could notice your environment and move only if appropriate.

It's a lot more boring to make sure the foundation is in place before we start throwing the skyscraper together. But skyscrapers with a deep foundation tend to hold up better when the earthquake comes.

pax

[DMK]

I agree with what everyone is saying. I'm not saying that someone should or could come off the street with no experience and shoot while moving. In fact, I'm not talking about shooting while moving at all.

All I'm saying is that if attacked, the first thing one needs to do is get out of the line of attack (be it gun, knife, crowbar, whatever). The next thing you need to do is put something between you and your attacker if possible. After that, you need to draw your weapon from concealment and only then does stance matter (if at all -What if you are crouching behind cover? What if you've been knocked down? What if you are in a vehicle?).

I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by DMK

....All I'm saying is that if attacked, the first thing one needs to do is get out of the line of attack (be it gun, knife, crowbar, whatever). The next thing you need to do is put something between you and your attacker if possible. After that, you need to draw your weapon from concealment ...

Well, if you're attacked the first thing you need to do will depend on exactly what happened and how it happened, but the skills you mention are all skills it's desirable to have and will most likely be useful.

Originally Posted by DMK

...I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.

Because some of those things one would not be permitted to do at most ranges. That's why IPDA/USPSA competition can be helpful.

[Sharkbite]

I have never seen anyone practice this at a range.
__________________

Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.

[pax]

Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.

Yep.

Loved the FAS4 class at the Firearms Academy of Seattle this past weekend.

pax

[DMK]

Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.

I've been shooting for a long while and have done the USPSA thing (which is very fun). I do need/want to take an appropriate Conceal Carry Handgun class though.

It seems like everyone and his cousin runs a class these days though. It's hard to determine what's worthwhile and what's not, along with who teaches a class appropriate to private citizens vs LEOs and Military/Contractors.

[Sharkbite]

Quote:
Then Youve never seen a true tactical pistol course being run by professional instructors.
Yep.

Loved the FAS4 class at the Firearms Academy of Seattle this past weekend.

pax

Lol...shameless plug for Marty??? He does a great job.

As to the "perfect stance" discussion. Let me give my perspective.

First, i taught at one of the major Weaver stance schools for almost 10years. That school (like most) has a tiered course offering system. Take the "basic" course and work up the ladder to the "advanced" courses.
I was almost always the Rangemaster for the adv tactical courses.

In that class we shot from and around vehicles. From unconventional positions, form the ground and around cover and at long distances with the handgun (im talking 200m +)
Now in those conditions you are NOT going to get a perfect Weaver stance. What i told my students is "get what you can of the foundational skills".

As an example. You can not get a "perfect Weaver" shooting out the back window of a vehicle from the drivers seat....get what you can. That usually means only a proper grip on the pistol and good trigger control.

If standing behind a building corner you can get more of the foundational skills into play.

Its kind of like what i teach about using the sights in a fight...get what you can. If the action is so fast and close that you cant use sights, then dont. If you have the time and space to extend the gun fully but not align the sights, then dont. If however you CAN get the sights lined up..by all means DO SO.

But an attempt to stand however you want as a begining step to effective and efficient use of the pistol is going to end in sub-optimal performance. Lay a solid foundation and you will be able to adapt that to changing conditions. Lay no foundation and things fall apart QUICKLY

[Sharkbite]

I've been shooting for a long while and have done the USPSA thing (which is very fun). I do need/want to take an appropriate Conceal Carry Handgun class.

It seems like everyone and his cousin runs a class these days though. It's hard to determine what's worthwhile and what's not, along with who teaches a class appropriate to private citizens vs LEOs and Military/Contractors.

Brother...thats a good attitude. Too many guys that have been "shooting for a long while" wont admit to needing training. I liken it to my new hobby of Golf. I was able to go out and hit the ball. But a cpl lessons with the "Pro" really helped.

You dont say where you live, so specific course recommendations are hard. As a general rule, check out
Marty Hays @ firearms training in Seattle ( thats for you Pax)
Tom Givins @ Rangemasters
Rob Pincus @ ICE training (i taught with Rob at Valhalla)
Gunsite (heavy Weaver based curriculum )
I would recommend Front Sight but its turned into a huge numbers game. With a corresponding watering down of the quality of instruction. However, you can get some cheap course coupons and it gets you a weekend in Vegas

[Erno86]

I've never been in a gunfight...and I tend to agree with Cunningham on a charging attacker at close range --- due to the high probability that a defender will square-up to a close range running attacker --- like a offensive football lineman that squares-up to a charging defensive lineman; whether trained in the Weaver Stance or not.

That said...the isosceles stance --- IMHO --- should be the most preferred stance, that especially involves a close-range running attacker --- whether using one or two hands too hold the gun. Using one hand gun support, the shooter will be able to have a clenched fist at chest height if the fight progresses to hand to hand combat.

A Weaver Stance will place the shooter in a stance for receiving a possible double lung hit. An Isosceles Stance will afford the chance of the shooter receiving a possible single lung hit.

On close range shots....a shooter should train not to use the sights for a center impact hit that involves the shooter to get off a shot that requires speed. The guns sights --- with training --- should come up naturally to eye height subconsciously with the sights almost in perfect alignment ---- with the shooter pressing the trigger at a close range attacker.


Cheers,

Erno

[WVsig]

I've been shooting for a long while and have done the USPSA thing (which is very fun). I do need/want to take an appropriate Conceal Carry Handgun class though.

It seems like everyone and his cousin runs a class these days though. It's hard to determine what's worthwhile and what's not, along with who teaches a class appropriate to private citizens vs LEOs and Military/Contractors.

Here is a great site with top level trainers in locations all over the US.

http://aliastraining.com/

Jeff Gonzales, Ken Hackathorn & Mike Pannone all offer concealed carry oriented classes.

[raimius]

I'll add to the previous list:
Combat Shooting and Tactics in TX has good classes, although finding a civilian-centered one might be difficult, as Paul Howe mostly teaches mil/leo based courses.

SSV Group in Colorado is a smaller one, but currently does a lot more basic/intermediate courses. (I know the owner quite well, and he takes both shooting skills and teaching methods seriously.)

[DMK]

Brother...thats a good attitude. Too many guys that have been "shooting for a long while" wont admit to needing training. I liken it to my new hobby of Golf. I was able to go out and hit the ball. But a cpl lessons with the "Pro" really helped.

You dont say where you live, so specific course recommendations are hard. As a general rule, check out

I'm a firm believer in being a lifelong student. There's always more to learn and sometimes you do need to go back and review your earlier studies to reinforce the basics.

I'm in Western NC. I really would like to take a Rob Pincus / ICE training class. That's where Cunningham's "Combat Focus" stuff comes from. I think I will get some time off to take one of these in VA.

http://www.combatfocusshooting.com/

Thanks for that link WVsig!

[DMK]

That said...the isosceles stance --- IMHO --- should be the most preferred stance, that especially involves a close-range running attacker ...

On close range shots....a shooter should train not to use the sights for a center impact hit that involves the shooter to get off a shot that requires speed. The guns sights --- with training --- should come up naturally to eye height subconsciously with the sights almost in perfect alignment ---- with the shooter pressing the trigger at a close range attacker.

This seems very consistent with what Cunningham is saying.

I'm still a little fuzzy on the instinctive stance he's advocating (which looks to me like if you jumped from about 3 or 4 feet and landed square this would be about right with a slight squat, a low CG and weight slightly forward), but it seems to me that if you practiced Isosceles you'd be in a familiar place if/when instinct kicked in.

Let me clarify something mentioned earlier also. Some folks said that when you give a new shooter a gun, that they will instinctively lean back and adopt poor form. That's not what Cunningham is talking about when discussing instinct. He's referring to the instinctive defensive stance people take without any weapon in their hands. That's the starting point of the stance. He's not saying that weapons handling would or should be instinctive. He's only advocating that you train with your initial unarmed reactions in mind. At least, that's my understanding.

I think this explains it better than i have been:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/combat-focus-shooting/

[FireForged]

Originally Posted by DMK
....All I'm saying is that if attacked, the first thing one needs to do is get out of the line of attack (be it gun, knife, crowbar, whatever). The next thing you need to do is put something between you and your attacker if possible. After that, you need to draw your weapon from concealment ...

I have been in plenty of scrapes in my lifetime and no two were ever the same. Certainly not enough to have some sort of checklist like you describe. Any decision to move, move to where or stay put is very subjective and greatly dependent on what is happening. The first thing you may need to do is stay exactly where you are. The first thing you may need to do is step into it not move away from it... it just all depends. Conflict and violence are very fluid and dynamic events, there is no set 1-2-3.

[Brit]

The biggest fight I was ever in (aged 33) I was walking towards 4 yobos, who were sitting at a booth in an Indian Restaurant in the UK. Words had been exchanged.

I was in mid stride, the aggressive one, the one I was walking towards, stood up, fists rising!

When my flat foot kick hit him in the chest, breaking 3 ribs.

A/ I had never done this move before.

B/ Wearing glasses, collar and tie, good crease in pants, shinny black shoes (Steel toe caps) every move slowed down! Like a slo mo movie.

Fight beginning to end, max 2 minutes, if that.

No possibility of carrying a gun in the UK, if I had of been carrying one, same scenario by me. Stance? Must say I enjoyed it, the crazy 60s.

At almost 80? I have calmed down, a lot.