Royal Robbins 5.11 Tactical Pants

[templar333]

Hey guys. Another product development query.

Pro & cons of the 5.11 please.
What are your likes & dislikes?
Given a choice, how would you improve on it?

I know a lot of folks that love these but have a problem with the rear pockets. Some find the drop to deep.

I've been asked to look into possible new designs. Thanks.

[Incursion]

I just got a pair. I'll report back when I wear them on Friday.

[templar333]

Thanks, Incursion.

[HKguy9]

I like 'em. Only thing I'd ever change on them would be type of fabric. Having a pair in some other waterproof material would be nice.

I like the big pockets. My cell phone is too small for the front pocket (I have a folding Motorola), and wish the pocket was bigger so I can get more fingers in there to fish it out if I use it. It's perfect for some other cell phones, a Leatherman or pistol mag, though.

Cargo pockets are nice but I never use 'em.

[Fly320s]

Yeah, I think the rear pockets are too deep, at least for my wallet. When I put my wallet there it lines up with the back of my upper thigh which is uncomfortable to sit on.

Also, I'd rather have the small thigh pocket on the left leg, but that's just preference.

A softer, more Dockers like material would be a nice option for just daily wear. Royal Robbins makes a similar pant using softer cotton and one using a water-resistant material but neither have the 5.11 style pockets.

[templar333]

Skunk, I got the old StarTac so yeah, it's a bit of a challenge. Point noted. Thanks.

Fly, ditto on the softer fabric. In fact, I've been told from someone on the other forum that the 'non-tactical' version is a sorta washed and brushed variety, which makes it softer.

Guys, my concern is water repellency. Anytime, a fabric is water resistant or water proof, it's usually a tighter weave with coating of some sort on it. Fine for the colder months but in the middle of summer, oi. I'll look into existing fabrics and see what will work. Thanks.

FYI, I tried this once on a pair of Propper pants and it works pretty decently. I washed it first and then sprayed the pants with NikWax. Water repellant it was (I would not go as far as saying that it was totally waterproof...almost). I was caught in a mini monsoon and it kept my legs dry. You can do this on any almost any pants.

[Andrew Wyatt]

What I'd like to see is a functional replica of the new marine BDU, not camouflage pattern wise, but construction wise. I like al owt of the features they have, but their lack of availability(primarily because the pattern is copywrited) makes them hard to find.

I'd like pants and a shirt that:

Came in 100% cotton ripstop
Had pockets for inserting pads in the elbows and knees
had upper arm pockets
velcro closures
canted front pockets on the shirt


and came in colors other than black and tan. maybe denim (for the pants)

Another thing i'd like to see is a somewhat updated replica of the old british pattern 37 hipower holster. It's a great holster, because it protects the gun and still allows a relatively quick draw stroke and one hand holstering.

[templar333]

Andrew, quick Q. I have some old shirts that have canted front pockets but any reason why you like 'em so?

New marine BDU....hmmmmm.....this is new to me. I didn't even know that they have a new one. I will look into it. Thanks.

[HKguy9]

Templar, I got the RR 5.12 Odyssey pants. I figure it was .01 more tactical than the 5.11 so I had to get it.

Actually it's some nylon that isn't noisy like workout pants and has zippered pockets for retention. I can take some photos for you if you really need water repellancy?

A guy on Beretta forum has the pants in black, and says it's more of a charcoal almost-black. I think the 5.11-series black is different from their normal stuff.

Let me know if you want me to post photos.

[templar333]

Skunk, yeeeeaaah, I'd like to see some pixs Listen other than the 5.8 oz textured nylon fabric, how does the 5.12 differ from 5.11 in design? Thanks, man.

[corsair]

templar333, you bring up a good point concerning water repelant treatment. The 5.11 as comfy and usefull as they are, my only problem with them is that the heavy cotton material that is used lends itself to absorbing and retaining moisture. Either sweating, damp grass or raining, the 5.11s are useless.

When the weather goes bad, I like going the way of synthetics. In the last 5 yrs technology has produced a lot of fabrics which mimic cotton in terms of comfort and hand, but exceed cotton in performance. Abrasion wise and absorbsion/wicking wise. I really haven't found any that are equivilant in terms of design to the 5.11, maybe be patented. I have a couple of pairs of pants from North Face and REI. Those two companies seem to have the best designs of "outdoor" synthetic pants. Columbia and Ex Officio also offer competitive desings also. I can get those pants wet and they'll dry off quickly while I'm wearing them. Not so with cotton, might as well wear a bath towel.

Don't get me wrong, cotton is great when its hot out, but the synthetics rule otherwise. Working in the dreary environment of Alaska, the synthetics held up much better than the 5.11's.

[Andrew Wyatt]

the canted pocets make it a little easier to reach the bottom with the opposite side hand.

My BDU shirts (vertical pockets) force me to adopt a funny hand position to get stuff out of them one handed.

[templar333]

corsair, you're absolutely right. I love cotton but when the going gets rough (weather wise), cotton is not necessarily the best choice. That's why I'm pretty curios about the 5.12 that Skunk was talking about. RR used Supplex Nylon on these and (well) according to them, the 5.8 oz textured nylon is hardier than the 8.5 oz Billy Goat canvas on the 5.11. I guess I would have to get a pair to see for myself. If it really is than hardy, it could be the way to go.

[templar333]

the canted pocets make it a little easier to reach the bottom with the opposite side hand.

Aaaaaah, thanks Andrew. Learnt something new. This has been a very enlightening discussion so far. For a product developer, this is info heaven

Many, many thanks y'all.

[Lightfighter]

I wear 5.11 pants everyday. I do not know how I lived or what I wore before (oh yeah, I was in the army and they chose my wardrobe everyday).

[Clayton Hufford]

Ordered a pair from Lightfighter yesterday. I'll give a heads up when they arrive.

Best regards,
Clay

[GlockPower]

I wear 5.11 pants everyday too..

First and foremost, if you are designing pants as competition, make sure the MSRP is no more than $29.95

I have a lot of friends, LEO and civs, and they hate spending $40 for pants, because they want to buy 4-7 pairs...you see?

Otherwise, I like the front mag pocket, works great for a dual 123 flashlight like the Streamlight Scorpion or Surefire E2/Z2/6P/M2, etc...

I also like the D ring at the belt level, holds keys very well...

I really like the elastic waist, keeps them on me really well...one thing I should note is that with my black belt on it all the time, the elastic parts tend to turn a shade of black, of course this comes off once washed, but still.

So far, everyone gives me good comments on my 5.11, it should be fairly difficult to compete with these pants...but the price is a big factor. I know it doesn't cost anything close to $40 to make these pants.

I'd love to see these offered in digital camo, woodlands, and maybe plain white...

Also make the mag pouch extra reinforced, as flashlights tend to wear it out when they are tight in there..

[Blue Jays]

Good Evening All-

Templar333, good thread! The typical purchaser of these garments probably pays attention to his/her physical fitness. With that in mind, allow enough room for well-developed thighs and strong gluteals.

This has always been tough for me with my 24" thighs coupled with a 32" waist. The rise should be fairly long to allow breathability.

Belt loops should be able to handle wider belts (e.g. Wilderness Instructor belt or S.O.E. Rigger's belt) that run about 1.75" or so. Hope this leads to a great design!

Regards,

~ Blue Jays ~

[templar333]

GlockPower, actually, I am looking at $29.95 retail price range. Someone else on another forum came up with a damn good idea...a thin belt loop over or aft of the seam that's on both sides. This way you could keep your holster from moving. If that's the case, then I might consider moving the elastic portion towards the rear a tad bit.

Blue Jays, I know exactly what you mean. BTW, I don't think a 1.75" belt would fit very well with the current 5.11 I could be wrong though.

Keep the ideas coming guys. I'm taking notes

[Andrew Wyatt]

I'd like pants with a Camelbak pocket.

[Incursion]

I wore mine yesterday. The pockets are placed in great positions. Now I want another pair.

[VaughnT]

How about a gusseted crotch? I didn't see that listed as one of their attributes but think it is critical to functioning as an active adult. I'm constantly climbing and squatting, and one of the first things to go is the crotch seam. Had that happen twice while assisting a customer in their vault ...now I make sure my undies are the same color as my uniform pants!!!!

I also thought of a name for these Uberpants. PM if your keen to know.

[GlockPower]

I want the mag / flashlight pocket on the LEFT side...several thoughts:

1. I have my Keltec P32 in my right pocket, and that makes it REALLY tight on the light and the gun...

2. The light has worn the pants out where the light's head flares out...because the gun is making it too tight.

3. If you are holding your weapon with your right hand, then you would have to retrieve the spare mag with your left hand, or swap gun hands, all BAD...

maybe, have two mag/light pouches, for both left and right handed people, or someone like me, who wants to have a dual 123 light in one, and maybe an extra keltec mag in the other...

and why not, two pockets and black = more tactical

[GlockPower]

Another thought on the mag pocket:

Make them like the regular bdu side pockets (near the knees) that open up towards the middle...

that way, the fabric would not be destroyed by large objects such as my scorpion over the keltec..

[templar333]

Guys, here's a quick summary of all the feedback I've received collectively from all the forums.....

1. A belt loop over both side seams or aft of it (for a belt holster).
2. Remove the carabiner strap.
3. Back pockets drop to deep, problem with wallet. Keep current pockets but place additional inner pockets on both sides for wallet.
4. Remove D-Ring to the insides of side cargo pockets (for keys). Possibly change D-Ring into small swivel snap so that it can actually hold a key ring.
5. Move utility pocket from right thigh to left. If this is to be used for cellphone, make it a tad wider for better access.
6. Make sure loops will fit 1.75" belts.
7. Consider Supplex Nylon instead of cotton especially in adverse weather conditions.
8. Would be nice if one could slip in a 1/4" thick closed cell foam in between the reinforced knee layers (padding for certain occasions).
9. Retail below $30
10. Colors other than black and tan.
11. Keep left rear pocket the way it is to dump mags during tac reloads (what do you guys think of this?).
12. Smaller pocket inside the side cargo pockets like the original jungle BDUs. These pockets were originally meant for small survival kits that never made it but always nice to hide your folders there if need be.
13. Gussetted crotch.

I guess I got my work cut out for me for the rest of the season

Thanks, guys. I'm starting product development on the first prototype in January. I will keep y'all posted.

In the meantime, the best wishes and Season's Greetings to you and your family from the folks at i-SHOT.

Thank you for making our first year a very successful one