Colt Model 1849 Pocket Pistol?

**Aguila Blanca** · October 16, 2011, 12:51 AM

.31 caliber. Sorry, I don't have photos. It was described to me as "rough, looks like someone took steel wool to the cylinder."

One book lists them as being worth $275 in "Good" condition and $750 in "Excellent" condition. Some forum on the Internet quoted an uncited source as saying that one in excellent condition is worth several thousand dollars, and one in "Poor" condition is worth $350.

Does anyone know what they are REALLY worth?

P.S. It's a 5-shot cylinder, and the mechanism is broken inside. The cylinder does not rotate when the hammer is cocked. Numrich does not have parts for it.

madcratebuilder · October 16, 2011, 08:37 AM

If it's a old original then it's all about condition. We would need several close up photos to assist in pricing.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 17, 2011, 10:04 PM

Seems to be first generation, with New York City address. All numbers match. My guess is that it's original, but it's been rode hard and put up wet. Confirmed that cylinder does not turn when cocked. It's free to rotate, but the hand doesn't function.

Photos:

What say ye?

(Seems I'm limited to 6 photos. There are six others, if anyone is seriously interested, let me know and I'll send them in a PM. Not sure if it's bending or outright breaking the rules to add the other six in a second post.

mykeal · October 18, 2011, 06:31 AM

No bending or breaking required; the rule refers to individual posts, not threads. Go ahead and post them.

madcratebuilder · October 18, 2011, 07:29 AM

It appears to me it had considerable rust covering it at one time. At least it wasn't taken to bare shinny metal, still has some patina to it. The cylinder not rotating could be a broker hand spring. A replacement part is easy to find and fit.

I would look at completed auctions on Gunbroker for a price idea. I'm thinking this is in the area of $600-800. I could be way off, prices have kind of left me in the dust.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 18, 2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

No bending or breaking required; the rule refers to individual posts, not threads. Go ahead and post them.

Thanks. Here goes, then:

B. Lahey · October 18, 2011, 03:33 PM

As I understand it, the pocket model is one of the most common. That one looks like it was badly rusted, but then tastefully and minimally cleaned up. Considering the repairs needed, I would probably throw out $200 as a starting offer, and would be willing to go up a little while haggling.

arcticap · October 19, 2011, 02:54 AM

Here's two 1849 revolvers that were recently sold by a prominent auction house. The prices realized of $409.50 and $750.60 include the added 17% buyer fee. The seller also pays a 15% auction fee to the auction house for successfully selling the gun.
Your's seems to be in lesser condition than both of these guns. But IMO the price realized may still be somewhere around $350 more or less, and the fees would then be deducted.
National online auction prices seem to be very competitive lately, and the guns are generally bid on by folks who have experience buying these models. So the prices realized are relatively honest values. Every gun sold on auction can't be expected to sell at the top retail value for its condition, and folks sometimes over pay because they get caught up in the bidding, or slightly underpay due to the detailed description about the gun and the $25 - $50 bid increments.

#1 had a realized price of $409.50:

http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En

#2 had a realized price of $760.50:

http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En

Doc Hoy · October 19, 2011, 06:50 AM

I examined an 1849 in almost precisely the condition of the second image (the better of the two) at a gun show recently. The finish was still as good as the one in the photo and the action cycled properly.

BUT VERY UNFORTUNATELY....

It had a loose arbor which badly hurt its value IMO.

Asking price was $845.00.

I am sure the vendor would have come down.

I am very dumb about the values of original revolvers. I personally wouldn't start buying them until I had done some research unless the price was so good that I felt I could not go wrong.

madcratebuilder · October 19, 2011, 08:10 AM

Baby Colts that actually sold on GB.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=240693892
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=240693892

This one at $8500 brings the average price UP!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=241032692

Here's one in similar condition under $500.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=248505779

**Aguila Blanca** · November 11, 2011, 01:46 PM

Further information -- and a question:

I finally undertook to open it up. Someone had been there ahead of me, because the screws were all very loose. What I found was that the hand spring is intact, but the hand literally fell out of the frame. The slot was all gunked up and needed cleaning, but when I removed the hammer I found what appeared to be a sheared-off stud in the left side. After looking at some schematics of 1851 Navy revolvers, I'm guessing that the hand is supposed to be mounted on the hammer with a pin that rotates as the hammer is cocked. Is that correct?

If so, then it looks like the pin sheared off at the interface between the hand and the hammer. Now the question becomes, can it be repaired? And ... SHOULD it be repaired, or would doing so reduce the pistol's value rather than enhance it?

Doc Hoy · November 11, 2011, 05:13 PM

Yes,

The hand is mounted to the left side of the hammer at a point which is eccentric to the axis of rotation of the hammer, kind of like a connecting rod.. As the hammer is drawn back the hand moves with the motion of the hammer to rotate the cylinder. You can well imagine that if there is anything holding the cylinder in place such as failure of the bolt to disengage or binding or jamming of the cylinder, binding or locking of the hand itself the pin, which on yours is broken is the first part that fails.

Here is a question for the value experts.

Lets say this pistol's action could be restored to proper operation by installation of a new pin and hand retaining the original hammer. So the owner fixes the pistol by drilling the old pin out of the hammer and installs the new pin and hand. Upon selling the revolver he makes no secret about the fact it hs been repaired.

Is it now worth more because it works (not shoots, just works) or is it worth less because it has been fiddled with?

mykeal · November 11, 2011, 07:46 PM

The pin that mounts the hand to the hammer is attached to the hand, not the hammer. The hammer has a hole into which the pin, or stud, on the base of the hand is inserted.

In my opinion: since the pin is a part of the hand no modification or repair of the original hammer is necessary. The hand is a consumable part, so replacing it has no effect on the value of the gun.

Doc Hoy · November 11, 2011, 08:13 PM

I am thinking Remington and also am thinking replica since I have never examined an original.

October 18, 2011, 03:33 PM	#7
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	As I understand it, the pocket model is one of the most common. That one looks like it was badly rusted, but then tastefully and minimally cleaned up. Considering the repairs needed, I would probably throw out $200 as a starting offer, and would be willing to go up a little while haggling. __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

October 19, 2011, 02:54 AM	#8
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	Here's two 1849 revolvers that were recently sold by a prominent auction house. The prices realized of $409.50 and $750.60 include the added 17% buyer fee. The seller also pays a 15% auction fee to the auction house for successfully selling the gun. Your's seems to be in lesser condition than both of these guns. But IMO the price realized may still be somewhere around $350 more or less, and the fees would then be deducted. National online auction prices seem to be very competitive lately, and the guns are generally bid on by folks who have experience buying these models. So the prices realized are relatively honest values. Every gun sold on auction can't be expected to sell at the top retail value for its condition, and folks sometimes over pay because they get caught up in the bidding, or slightly underpay due to the detailed description about the gun and the $25 - $50 bid increments. #1 had a realized price of $409.50: http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En #2 had a realized price of $760.50: http://poulinantiques.auctionflex.co...enum=1&lang=En Last edited by arcticap; October 19, 2011 at 03:44 AM.

October 19, 2011, 06:50 AM	#9
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Articap I examined an 1849 in almost precisely the condition of the second image (the better of the two) at a gun show recently. The finish was still as good as the one in the photo and the action cycled properly. BUT VERY UNFORTUNATELY.... It had a loose arbor which badly hurt its value IMO. Asking price was $845.00. I am sure the vendor would have come down. I am very dumb about the values of original revolvers. I personally wouldn't start buying them until I had done some research unless the price was so good that I felt I could not go wrong. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 11, 2011, 05:13 PM	#12
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	AB Yes, The hand is mounted to the left side of the hammer at a point which is eccentric to the axis of rotation of the hammer, kind of like a connecting rod.. As the hammer is drawn back the hand moves with the motion of the hammer to rotate the cylinder. You can well imagine that if there is anything holding the cylinder in place such as failure of the bolt to disengage or binding or jamming of the cylinder, binding or locking of the hand itself the pin, which on yours is broken is the first part that fails. Here is a question for the value experts. Lets say this pistol's action could be restored to proper operation by installation of a new pin and hand retaining the original hammer. So the owner fixes the pistol by drilling the old pin out of the hammer and installs the new pin and hand. Upon selling the revolver he makes no secret about the fact it hs been repaired. Is it now worth more because it works (not shoots, just works) or is it worth less because it has been fiddled with? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 11, 2011, 08:13 PM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Oooops... Sorry I am thinking Remington and also am thinking replica since I have never examined an original. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

October 16, 2011, 12:51 AM	#1
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,473	Colt Model 1849 Pocket Pistol? .31 caliber. Sorry, I don't have photos. It was described to me as "rough, looks like someone took steel wool to the cylinder." One book lists them as being worth $275 in "Good" condition and $750 in "Excellent" condition. Some forum on the Internet quoted an uncited source as saying that one in excellent condition is worth several thousand dollars, and one in "Poor" condition is worth $350. Does anyone know what they are REALLY worth? P.S. It's a 5-shot cylinder, and the mechanism is broken inside. The cylinder does not rotate when the hammer is cocked. Numrich does not have parts for it.

October 16, 2011, 08:37 AM	#2
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	If it's a old original then it's all about condition. We would need several close up photos to assist in pricing.

October 18, 2011, 06:31 AM	#4
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	No bending or breaking required; the rule refers to individual posts, not threads. Go ahead and post them.

October 18, 2011, 07:29 AM	#5
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	It appears to me it had considerable rust covering it at one time. At least it wasn't taken to bare shinny metal, still has some patina to it. The cylinder not rotating could be a broker hand spring. A replacement part is easy to find and fit. I would look at completed auctions on Gunbroker for a price idea. I'm thinking this is in the area of $600-800. I could be way off, prices have kind of left me in the dust.

October 19, 2011, 08:10 AM	#10
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Baby Colts that actually sold on GB. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=240693892 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=240693892 This one at $8500 brings the average price UP! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=241032692 Here's one in similar condition under $500. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=248505779

November 11, 2011, 01:46 PM	#11
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,473	Further information -- and a question: I finally undertook to open it up. Someone had been there ahead of me, because the screws were all very loose. What I found was that the hand spring is intact, but the hand literally fell out of the frame. The slot was all gunked up and needed cleaning, but when I removed the hammer I found what appeared to be a sheared-off stud in the left side. After looking at some schematics of 1851 Navy revolvers, I'm guessing that the hand is supposed to be mounted on the hammer with a pin that rotates as the hammer is cocked. Is that correct? If so, then it looks like the pin sheared off at the interface between the hand and the hammer. Now the question becomes, can it be repaired? And ... SHOULD it be repaired, or would doing so reduce the pistol's value rather than enhance it?

November 11, 2011, 07:46 PM	#13
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	The pin that mounts the hand to the hammer is attached to the hand, not the hammer. The hammer has a hole into which the pin, or stud, on the base of the hand is inserted. In my opinion: since the pin is a part of the hand no modification or repair of the original hammer is necessary. The hand is a consumable part, so replacing it has no effect on the value of the gun.