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Old August 9, 2020, 01:50 PM   #51
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Which “science” is that?
Well, lets see.. if I remember correctly, I believe that 8th-9th grade textbooks back in the 1970s called it "mechanics" which was a subcategory of physical science.

When I said that I believe in the science of ballistics, I am simply saying that I accept that the weight, style, type, design and powder charge do make a difference. At the same time, I am not all hung up on those characteristics to the degree that many other people seem to be. I just want something to be a JHP so that at least, it has some manner of opportunity to avoid over penetrating. I manly want something in the (jhp) class to be as weighty as possible and run reliably in my gun. I spend more time on the cereal isle than I do trying to figure out what ammo I want for my carry gun. It just aint that deep to me.
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Old August 9, 2020, 03:35 PM   #52
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I don't know that any of us know what's gonna happen when we shoot someone if we ever do until after it is all over. That leave's everything a guess for most of us, me included. Soldier shooting is second hundred enemy soldier's probably hasn't really a cue what his bullet is going to do when it hit's the enemy! He does know a solid hit will stop and or slow the guy and a good chest hit is likely gonna knock him down, nothing more. take two bullet's loaded exactly the same and shoot them into say a dead pig. Both placed pretty close to the same and on entering the body they both may well take different paths but still incapacitate the pig! For myself I believe the best way to pick a bullet is to choose one at a moderate velocity with average or heavier weight The idea is to get the bullet inside and hopefully not completely penetrate and get a bystander near by! Starting at a slower velocity is fine because the actually range fired in a real self defense situation just isn't gonna be that far. To much velocity and one of two things will happen the bullet may blow up not causing needed damage inside or it may completely penetrate causing danger for nearby bystander's. Not enough velocity and could be the bullet won't get inside and do what it needs to do but I'm pretty sure even if it doesn't drop the bad guy, it will make him stop and reflect on his situation.

I carry a 9mm with 124gr JHP's, handloads. I suspect that the bullet I should go to is the 147gr. Heavier bullet at sufficient velocity to penetrate deep enough to complete the job but hopefully not enough velocity to exit. I suspect that pretty much fit's with my 124gr but sometime's I'm just not sure and never will be until the time come's to put it to actual use. Gelatin or even gallon jugs of water will tell you how much penetration you can expect within a certain medium but can't tell you what happens if the bullet hits a bone. I shot a deer years ago with my 25-06 and a 117gr handload. Bullet went in behind the shoulder, clipped a rib bone and that turned the bullet and I found it up in the neck. That bullet had a measured muzzle velocity of 3079fps. You simply don't know till after the fact what the bullet is going to do inside the target. But what I'm pretty sure of it that a bullet that expends itself to quickly may make a mess on the surface and damage nothing important That would be the world of much to fast a bullet. I'd avoid it! Heavy bullet brings down velocity but may still bounce around inside the target. As long as it doesn't penetrate out the other side and endanger some bystander, that's fine Bounce around inside the target all it want's and greater chance of stopping the target right there. Those thing's we won't know to happen till we have to deploy that bullet! So in my mind it's use your best guess to keep a bullet inside and still penetrate enough to finish the job!

Accuracy at SD range seem's to me not worth worrying about. I do not shoot my auto loader carry gun's all that well using the sight's. So I switched to learning point and shoot and have gotten good enough at it that a watermelon at 10yds or less is in grave danger of being hit every time and quickly at that! If you are firing at much more than 10yds, likely self defense has little to do with it! Sometime compare a watermelon the a human chest!

This of course is all opinion. None of us know what will happen to the target as a result of the bullet hitting until it does and then some doctor examining the wound tells us! In fact until the moment arrives, none of us actually know what we are likely to do in the first place! Other than getting to much penetration I think the least of your worry's is the bullet your using. Even a fast light bullet hitting a person in the leg is gonna give 90% of them reason to pause and give you another shot. But at the same time I'd prefer if I ever have to shoot someone that they fall down on the ground dead with the first shot.
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Old November 25, 2020, 11:41 PM   #53
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I know this is an old thread. I'm responding because I read through the entire thread and didn't see a single reference to Dr. Gary Roberts who is literally the guy who tells the FBI what to buy.

Anything on this list will work. My preference is Speer Gold Dots.


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....f-Defense-Ammo
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Old November 26, 2020, 10:40 AM   #54
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Go with Fed HST LE ammo. Forget the rest.
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Old November 26, 2020, 12:52 PM   #55
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I do NOT trust FeeBee to make truthful recommendations (e.g. the 9mm Punibellum is the "right" caliber for Police). My carry ammo is based on a consensus from what PDs and SOs carry.
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Old November 26, 2020, 01:14 PM   #56
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Very few PDs have the resources to do the same level of research on ammo as the FBI does and so, from what I can see, the majority of them tend to follow the FBI's recommendations.

Without knowing exactly what you mean by 'SO', if it relates to the military, it would seem that most of them are carrying 9mm and probably FMJ.

That said, you mentioned a "consensus" which implies a "general agreement". If you have input from a number of sources in PD and among 'SO's all of which tends to agree, I think most people here would find that very interesting.
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Old November 26, 2020, 03:21 PM   #57
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When possible, I prefer to use the same loads I used when I had a badge, meaning the stuff we either issued for duty at various times and/or approved for off-duty (especially if in a non-duty caliber).

That basically means I like to stay with 5 of the big names in American ammo makers. (Winchester, Federal, Speer, Remington & Hornady, in no particular "order".)

Having been familiar with the LE and industry ammo testing protocols and wound ballistics discussions going back to the late 80's, and having seen what's developed since then, I'm a lot less fussy about ammo choices than I once was as a younger shooter and cop (and younger LE firearms instructor).

Something made by one of the big names in ammo makers who design and provide defensive ammunition (whether for LE or private owners), whether non-bonded or bonded.
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Old November 27, 2020, 10:13 AM   #58
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Very few PDs have the resources to do the same level of research on ammo as the FBI does and so, from what I can see, the majority of them tend to follow the FBI's recommendations.

No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round. A few do force them and more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.

FeeBee picks what they want, then writes the specs to fit that choice. Pass.
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Old November 27, 2020, 10:40 AM   #59
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Old November 27, 2020, 03:09 PM   #60
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...more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.
Pre-insulting everyone who might disagree with you isn't really a polite debate technique, nor is it necessary if one can produce facts or logic to support their argument.
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No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round.
I didn't really get into whether or not police forces mandated that their officers carry only the issue round or how many do--that's a separate issue.

The original assertion was that choosing ammunition by PD consensus would net a different result from the FBI's recommendations. The fact is that U.S. PDs are heavily swayed by the FBI's recommendations. A consensus of U.S. PDs on ammunition/caliber is going to be very similar to what the FBI recommends.

Back in 2007, back when the .40S&W's heyday was still in full swing, the 9mm held 2nd place in LE according to a survey done by Winchester. (September/October 2007 American Handgunner COPTALK column by Massad Ayoob Winchester’s LE Seminar)

The .40S&W was in clear first place at the time--due to the FBI's use of it, of course. When the FBI went to 9mm, we all saw the used .40S&W LE guns flood the market.

Joel Harris, SIG Sauer's director of media relations and communication assesses that 9mm is now the most common caliber in LE. He cites the FBI's change to the 9mm as the reason.
https://www.policemag.com/502150/9mm...0Harris%20says.

Another source indicating that 9mm is top of the charts for U.S. law enforcement. And that cites the FBI's change to it as the reason.
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blo...do-police-use/

The point is that if a person wants' to avoid the FBI's recommendations, choosing a caliber based on the "consensus" of U.S. police departments is not the way to do it. U.S police departments are heavily affected by the FBI's recommendations.
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FeeBee picks what they want, then writes the specs to fit that choice.
The FBI created their ammunition specifications and testing regimen back in the late 1980s in response to the Miami shooting. They have used that same testing and specifications ever since. They first used them to select 10mm ammunition, then later .40S&W. Then, much later, when ammunition makers began producing 9mm that would meet the spec, selecting 9mm. All using the same testing and threshold specifications.

Here's an article from 1989 that describes the FBI protocol and for ammunition testing and the threshold of acceptability. It's simple to verify that it is still the same.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digi...22334NCJRS.pdf

The idea that they're changing their specifications to match whatever ammunition they want to buy doesn't really match with the facts.
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Old November 27, 2020, 04:10 PM   #61
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No, most do not. Few force their Patrol officers to carry the Punibellum round. A few do force them and more allow it as a secondary round as women and girly-men have training issues learning to effectively shoot a round made for American adults.
First, I'd like to point out that the list I linked to includes ammunition in .40S&W as well as .45 ACP in case you have issues with the adequacy of 9mm.

Dr.s Sydney Vail, Martin Fackler and Gary Roberts all agree that there's not real difference in the performance characteristics of the 3 main service calibers. In the notes included at the link Dr. Roberts recommends picking the gun that works for you then getting it in your preferred caliber.

Even Paul Harrel APBUH says pick the caliber that works for you and roll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Gary Roberts
As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense.


Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

Unless your department picks your caliber for you, pick the platform you shoot best, then decide on caliber from there. Basically all the standard service calibers work when using good quality ammunition; the platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. Currently the best duty pistols going right out of the box are probably the Glocks, S&W M&P's, as well as HK.
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Old November 28, 2020, 09:42 AM   #62
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I'm responding because I read through the entire thread and didn't see a single reference to Dr. Gary Roberts who is literally the guy who tells the FBI what to buy.
Quote:
Dr.s Sydney Vail,
Is a pathologist. Considering that almost 90% of GSW's the person survives I would say his sample was statistically very small.


Quote:
Martin Fackler
Respectfully died in 2015. His data is aged. His field was more military rounds and applications. it is also where your next guest Dentist Gary Roberts got his start by fetching gel blocks for the tests.

Quote:
Gary Roberts
Is a Dentist by trade. Ballistics is a hobby, not an area of occupational experience.

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all agree that there's not real difference in the performance characteristics of the 3 main service calibers. In the notes included at the link Dr. Roberts recommends picking the gun that works for you then getting it in your preferred caliber.
That shows your lack of knowledge about the subject matter. Were you aware that specific bullet construction is just as critical as caliber, velocity, etc?

You are correct that there are not huge differences, but minor advantages can be the difference between a stop and a failure.

With all this ballistic magic there is still not a round that beats the old school Remington 125 grain SJHP in 357 magnum.

If the IWBA was all that, where is it today?
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Old November 28, 2020, 09:57 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
Please.....

If the IWBA was all that, where is it today?
International Waterfowl Breeder's Association ?

Illinois Women's Bowling Association?
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Old November 28, 2020, 11:23 AM   #64
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International Waterfowl Breeder's Association ?

Illinois Women's Bowling Association?
Again, if you do not know it tells me all I need to know.
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Old November 28, 2020, 11:30 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Nanuk
Again, if you do not know it tells me all I need to know.
Injured Worker's Bar Association?
Incel White Boys Association?

Seriously, it seems that the International Wound Ballistics Association ceased to exist before I became interested in guns and concealed carry. That doesn't mean that I can't know who Dr. Fackler was (Although I didn't know he was dead). It also doesn't mean that Dr. Roberts isn't very well respected in the firearms training community now.

People that I do respect and who I have had a chance to interact with and who I am certain know what they're talking about agree that Dr. Roberts is an SME and does know his stuff. In fact a former staff member (Pax) here is who told me about him.

Why don't you follow the link I provided and read the list and tell me which of his ammunition suggestions is crap?
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Old November 28, 2020, 12:32 PM   #66
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Moon, In the end it is the shooter not the ammo that is going to solve the problem. People are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem. Most people cannot consistently hit so buying the latest greatest ammo is worthless.

I have been a student of ballistics for close to 50 years, and have been carrying professionally for almost 40 years. I have seen results on the street. Bullets today are performing (stopping bad guys) no better than they were 30 years ago. Maybe some do better under certain specific criteria, but that is it.

I was on the job before the famous Miami FBI shoot out and studied it with great interest. The fact that The FBI had to blame the bullet and not their own personnel speaks volumes. The bullet did not fail, it did EXACTLY what it was meant to do. The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.

People expect magic bullets, there is no such thing.
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Old November 28, 2020, 02:06 PM   #67
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How do you choose your SD ammo?

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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
Moon, In the end it is the shooter not the ammo that is going to solve the problem. People are looking for a hardware solution to a software problem. Most people cannot consistently hit so buying the latest greatest ammo is worthless.

I have been a student of ballistics for close to 50 years, and have been carrying professionally for almost 40 years. I have seen results on the street. Bullets today are performing (stopping bad guys) no better than they were 30 years ago. Maybe some do better under certain specific criteria, but that is it.

I was on the job before the famous Miami FBI shoot out and studied it with great interest. The fact that The FBI had to blame the bullet and not their own personnel speaks volumes. The bullet did not fail, it did EXACTLY what it was meant to do. The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.

People expect magic bullets, there is no such thing.

Training and bullet technology don’t have to mutually exclusive.

In reviewing the Miami Shootout there are certainly instances where training and tactics appear to have been deficient. The FBI deciding they needed a new cartridge as the solution may well be a case of looking for a “magic bullet”. But just because that was the FBI’s failing doesn’t mean everyone looking at bullet technology is falling into the same trap.

Re-evaluating the hardware in use is a fairly common practice in many industries. In the firearm industry it’s in part how we’ve seen a number of advances from cartridge design overall to the prevalence of semiautomatic weapons to the adoption of various optics (electronic and otherwise) and their reticles.

To me the real question is are the hardware differences such that upgrading is “worth it” and will actually yield significant improvement. In the case of say the Winchester Silvertip versus more modern designs such as the Gold Dot or HST the penetration and expansion of the newer bullets in calibrated ballistics gelatin appears better. How does that manifest in real world shootings? That doesn’t seem easy to gauge, in part as a function of data collection after the fact and also the sheer number of factors involved in a defensive shooting.

I do find it interesting that in the MHS trials for the Army ammunition was part of the selection process, including a hollowpoint. Now there is a potential claim that the Army is simply going with the crowd and I don’t want to be guilty of an appeal to authority. It does seem some people are convinced that bullet technology has changed enough to warrant some new adoptions, at least in terms of FMJ versus hollowpoint. How well this decision has been verified I don’t know.

In my own limited experience I do believe more training yields greater gains than simply buying new bullets. At the same time I don’t want development of the hardware to stop. I will continue training and when it comes to hardware I will do my best to examine the results of new products.


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Old November 28, 2020, 03:29 PM   #68
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The question that was asked was How do you choose your self-defense ammunition?

I was involved in a shooting several years ago and it changed my perspective on a lot of things. I started taking things very seriously when it came to what I carried and how I carried it and the training that I got.

At some point I decided I was only going to buy 1 type of self defense ammunition for myself and my wife but I had no FRIGGIN clue out of all the options available what kind of self-defense ammunition I should use.

I had been carrying Hornady Critical Duty or Critical Defense (I don't remember which) because the guy that owned the gun shop that I bought all my guns at handed me a box of it and said this is the best stuff there is use it.

He also had given me a box of APX(?) ammunition and said it was the best self defense ammunition on THE PLANET for my wife to use. If I remember correctly it was made out of copper dust and looked like a Phillips screwdriver on a shell casing. I looked it up on line and apparently it's horrible ammunition. I don't even think they make it anymore.

So, to make a long story short I decided to ask somebody who I knew was a nationally recognized, well respected, SME, Kathy Jackson (AKA Pax AKA Cornered Cat). She sent me the same link I posted above and told me "Anything on this list will work just fine." She also told me that she personally happened to use Speer Gold Dots, which are also on "The List". So, that's what I picked.

I had never heard of Dr. Gary Roberts (who is actually a Dentist BTW) before I followed that link but I decided to do some research on him

One of the first things that I found out is that a lot of people who are recognized as leading trainers and experts in the shooting industry have very high respect for him. At lot of these recognized experts in their field seem to think that he is The expert in his. I also looked at the guys credentials and he's got a pretty impressive resume and has been studying in this field for I think 20 or 30 years.

He helped the FBI set their parameters for what is acceptable performance for their duty ammunition. Then he "published" a list of ammunition that meets that criteria and, again, a whole bunch of people who are recognized to be experts in the shooting community swear by it.

In contrast I have three retired cops (one guy on Defensive Carry Forum) who I've never heard of who say he doesn't have any idea what he's talking about.

I know who I'm going to listen to.

You do you.
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Old November 28, 2020, 03:45 PM   #69
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The fact that only one hit, out of an entire magazine from bad breath distance was the problem.
The Winchester STHP that hit Platt and the FBI decided carried most of the blame for the debacle was ballistically matched to Jerry Dove's gun.

According to Dr. W. French Anderson's analysis it was fired from a distance of "approximately 30 feet".

That said, I agree that blaming one shot out of all that were fired and out of all that went on was not reasonable. There were many issues that contributed to the outcome, and that single bullet was only a very tiny part of it.
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Old November 28, 2020, 03:57 PM   #70
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And let's not forget that it was later determined that single bullet would have killed Platt anyway it just didn't incapacitate him fast enough.
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Old November 28, 2020, 06:42 PM   #71
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The Winchester STHP that hit Platt and the FBI decided carried most of the blame for the debacle was ballistically matched to Jerry Dove's gun.

According to Dr. W. French Anderson's analysis it was fired from a distance of "approximately 30 feet".
I was under the impression ( it has been a while since I looked at the data) That it was the Agent that was leaning over the hood. I guess he missed them all then.
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Old November 28, 2020, 06:43 PM   #72
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And let's not forget that it was later determined that single bullet would have killed Platt anyway it just didn't incapacitate him fast enough.
And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.
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Old November 28, 2020, 07:05 PM   #73
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How do you choose your SD ammo?

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Originally Posted by Nanuk View Post
And that is why I have NEVER been a 9mm fan.

The assumption there is that if it had been another round that Platt would have died. In terms of handguns at the scene in the hands of the agents there were 357 magnum revolvers, but as best as I can find in terms of information those revolvers were loaded with 38 special +P. Would that have performed dramatically differently than 9mm? I’m not sure. Now maybe if the agents had been using 357 magnums it would have been different. However, if Dove had been shooting 357 magnum maybe he wouldn’t have had the exact same shot placement. I think there are too many variables to make a definitive conclusion.

Mireles had a shotgun and the other 6 agents that didn’t arrive in time had MP5s, M16s, and shotguns. To me any of those are far better than just a different handgun cartridge in a different handgun (I know an MP5 fires a handgun cartridge, but again more points of contact generally make long guns easier to shoot). The agents that were killed by Platt were killed by his Ruger Mini-14 even though he did fire two 357 magnum revolvers. Again, long guns over handguns.

I’m pulling my info from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

I don’t want to get into another caliber/cartridge war. When it comes to handgun cartridges my opinion is they generally all suck without good shot placement. Below are two examples of multiple rounds of non-9mm (45 ACP and 40 SW) failing to stop a fight until shots to the head were delivered.

https://www.police1.com/officer-shoo...BbLYpnqqHxwMq/

https://www.policemag.com/340305/sho...ida-01-26-2008


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Old November 28, 2020, 07:22 PM   #74
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Here is a good analysis

https://youtu.be/iv8cByaVyNQ

I guess you can't direct link videos here but it's Paul Harrell and it's about 35 minutes long
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Old November 28, 2020, 08:02 PM   #75
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I was under the impression ( it has been a while since I looked at the data) That it was the Agent that was leaning over the hood. I guess he missed them all then.
Gordon McNeill was shooting a revolver. He had an excellent position early in the gunfight--7-8 feet from the passenger compartment of the Monte Carlo. He fired four shots that missed, then Platt shot him in the hand, causing a pretty severe injury. McNeill fired two more shots which Anderson believe hit Matix in the head and in the neck going into chest. It seems likely that these two wounds were the reason, or at least a significant part of the reason that Matix never really played a part in the rest of the gunfight.

After the 6th shot, McNeill tried to reload but the injury to his hand prevented him, or at least drew the procedure out too long. Platt exited the Monte Carlo and shot him in the neck while he was trying to reload. McNeill survived, but was paralyzed for several hours.

I've often wondered how things would have played out if McNeill had been armed with a high-capacity 9mm and hadn't had to stop shooting after just 6 rounds. He had an excellent position and was able to neutralize Matix with his first 6 rounds. Had he been able to keep shooting, I think there's a good chance he could have ended the gunfight by incapacitating Platt with the remaining rounds in his gun. And there's also a chance that he might have been able to reload had he run dry. One report indicates that material from his wound (blood/bone fragments/etc.) prevented him from closing the cylinder after the reload. Slipping a new mag in might have been within his capability even with the injury.
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