Serial Number question?

[taylorce1]

Had some action work done to a Savage and the serial number was milled off. The gunsmith that did this restamped the serial number on the bottom of the action. I took the barreled action in to get it Ceracoated and the cartridge stamped on the barrel. I asked if they could re-engrave the serial number back on the side of the receiver as well.

He told me it would be illegal to do that. The only reason I asked is the serial number that was restamped is very tiny and hard for me to read without magnification, I know I'm 45 and my eyes aren't that bad yet. Why is it illegal to have the serial number engraved again as long as it matches what is stamped on the action? I know it wasn't against the law for the first Smith to remove and relocate the number, so I'm not worried about that. I just want it a little easier to read.

[tangolima]

You could be in a bit of legal pickle if you read into the letter of the law. There was a recent on the same subject.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url...0&share_type=t


I believe the smith broke the law to remove and re-stamp the serial number. The coating place was right to refuse to engrave the number. You may want to re-consider the ownership to the said firearm.

-TL

[FrankenMauser]

If the Savage in question is the one that got milled for weight reduction and he took the serial number off in the process, the 'smith committed a felony and owes you a receiver (with a serial number).

Opinions are mixed, even from the ATF.
But the letter of the law provides no leeway.


The CeraKote shop doesn't want to re-engrave, because then they'd be further altering the serial number and become a party to what, as I understand the law and the ATF's current opinion, is already an illegal receiver.
(There are many good comments in the previously-linked discussion. Mine are in post #7.)

[The_Jerkman]

Sounds like your Smith owes you a new Savage

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Ricekila]

Old # can be brought up with acid -- just enough for them to verify with the new stamping --

[FrankenMauser]

Old # can be brought up with acid -- just enough for them to verify with the new stamping --

Nope.
That's further defacement -- even if it works.

The ORIGINAL serial number must remain untouched.

[RickB]

Yeah, the "raise with acid" deal is forensic, to determine who owns the gun with the removed serial number.
Gunsmiths can, and do, get permission - in advance - to relocate serial numbers, but there's no way to apply for restoration of the number after it has been removed.

Of course, who'd know that the number had been removed and re-stamped elsewhere? Not me. I have no idea where Savage stamps their serial numbers.

[Snyper]

Of course, who'd know that the number had been removed and re-stamped elsewhere?

The ATF would know.

[taylorce1]

I've researched this a little and from what i found, what the gunsmith did wasn't illegal. Even found some reference to it here on the forum. Seems it is pretty common practice when doing embellishments and restorations, it just can't be stamped over the location of the original serial number. Also they can change serial numbers, but that requires ATF paperwork.

I just found it odd that it would be thought illegal to duplicate the serial number in a larger font, where I didn't have to remove the rifle from the stock and the trigger assembly to read it.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

I've researched this a little and from what i found, what the gunsmith did wasn't illegal. Even found some reference to it here on the forum....

Phooey! Nothing in that thread counts as legal authority. No statutes or case law is cited. No documentation from ATF is provided.

Originally Posted by taylorce1

...Seems it is pretty common practice when doing embellishments and restorations, it just can't be stamped over the location of the original serial number....

Being common practice doesn't make it legal.

Let's again look at what the law actually is. It is generally a violation of federal to have a gun on which the manufacturer's (or importer's) serial number has been "removed, obliterated, or altered." (18 USc 922(k)):

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

The statute doesn't say anything about who removed, obliterated or altered the serial number or how the serial number got removed, obliterated or altered. So if you're holding a gun in your hand and know that the manufacturer's serial number on that gun has been removed, obliterated or altered, by anyone in any way, you're violating federal law.

Let's also look at what some courts have said:

• U.S. v. Horey, 36 F.3d 1106 (C.A.10 (Okl.), 1993):

  ...We turn to defendant's argument that his conviction for violating 18 U.S.C. 922(k) was also based on insufficient evidence. Defendant argues the government failed to sufficiently show that the revolver's serial number was removed, obliterated, or altered. He asserts the statute does not reach serial numbers that are still readable.
  
  Police officers testified that the serial number was obliterated. In addition, an expert in firearms and tool mark examination testified the revolver's serial number was partially obscured or obliterated. The examiner also noted that it was possible one or two additional serial numbers were completely obliterated. Based on the clear language of 922(k), we reject defendant's argument that the statute does not reach the firearm recovered by the police in this case. The evidence is sufficient to sustain the conviction, and we AFFIRM the jury's verdict....

• See also U.S. v. Adams, 305 F.3d 30 (Fed. 1st Cir., 2002)(emphasis added):

  ...As for the evidence, that was clearly sufficient once it is understood that any alteration that works against legibility is enough; ...The pistol was presented to the jury. The case agent testified at trial that he could read the six digits of the serial number but with difficulty. At oral argument, Adams's counsel asked that this court examine the original pistol, and we now report the results.
  
  ...
  
  Of course, judgment as to the degree of impairment was for the jury. But a reasonable jury could easily conclude that this pistol had been altered so as to make it appreciably more difficult to read the serial number. Indeed, a reasonable jury could hardly reach any other conclusion...

[taylorce1]

I went to the ATF web site and read the one you quoted. What I got out of it was my receiver didn't participate in interstate or foreign commerce when the serial number was moved. I also possessed it before it was milled off and relocated, so again it wasn't in interstate or foreign commerce. It also doesn't state the serial number has to be the original manufacturers number in the original location. My action still has the manufacturers serial number just not in the original location or stamp. The serial number hasn't been altered as it'll match what is on the form 4473 as well, but does changing the location of it meet the definition of an altered serial number?

Judgements made in CA don't usually apply to 49 other states. I don't live in CA so I fail to see how that case is relevant to my question.

The second case I'm not sure applies, as the serial number in its new locarion is legible on my reciever, though a magnifying glass helps me read it better. Like I stated my eyes are 45 years old, a younger person might read It just fine without magnification. It also isn't the neatest job I've seen as the stamps wandered on him. So if you can read the number and it matches the one from the form 4473, does what the smith did not meet the requirements? He wasn't working against it's legibility as stated in the Federal judgement you quoted.

All of which is great for discussion, but doesn't answer my original question.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by taylorce1

I went to the ATF web site and read the one you quoted. What I got out of it was my receiver didn't participate in interstate or foreign commerce when the serial number was moved. I also possessed it before it was milled off and relocated, so again it wasn't in interstate or foreign commerce....

You sure didn't understand what you read.

Let's look at the statute again with some emphasis added (18 USC 922(k)):

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

You have in your possession a rifle on which the serial number as stamped on it by the manufacturer has been removed, obliterated or altered. That rifle was almost certainly, at some time between when it was made and today, shipped or transported in interstate commerce. That sure looks like a violation of federal law.

Also the cases I cited were not California cases. They were cases in two Circuits of the Federal Court of Appeal: the Tenth Circuit covering Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah and Wyoming; and the First Circuit covering Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Puerto Rico, and Rhode Island.

In any case, I'm going to close discussion here. You appear to have some real legal difficulties which should not be discussed with strangers in a public forum.

If you want to pursue this you should hire your own, qualified lawyer. What you discuss with your lawyer is confidential.