Does this Ithaca, look right to you.

Pahoo · February 3, 2014, 12:50 PM

Fellas, if you would, look at this picture #10, on this Ithaca SideLock. There is a backing washer on the lock-plate screw. It looks odd to me and feel that it is not original. You seldom see these Ithaca Hawken models and perhaps one of you, out there, can give me some feedback on it. Any and all information would be appreciated. ....

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=390771720

Be Safe !!!

gyvel · February 3, 2014, 01:20 PM

Looking at some pics of other guns, I didn't see it.

**Mike Irwin** · February 3, 2014, 01:28 PM

No, it doesn't look correct.

The Ithaca Hawkens I've seen have had an inlet eschtcheon for the screw, like this one:

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armsl...hawken_640.jpg

My guess is that the escutcheon popped out and he replaced it with that thing...

shortwave · February 3, 2014, 02:22 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the escutcheon popped out and he replaced it with that thing

Which looks way too big.

Good eye Pahoo.

PetahW · February 3, 2014, 02:28 PM

.

Since the Ithaca Hawken was only made for one year, I'd WAG the issue won't have much outcome on the final sales price.

The correct estucheon can most likely be matched from the many available through Track of the Wolf, the Hawken Shop, and other parts vendors, even though the original parts were custom-made by Cherry Corners (OH).

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...868/1/SP-HLB-B

.

Pahoo · February 3, 2014, 03:03 PM

During what I call the SideLock Renaissance Period of the late 70's and early 80's, there were many companies that got into the game. Ithica was just one of many and offered a faithful reproduction. That is the period where I got hooked and have never regretted it. It's great to look at old catalogs of that period and pick out all the reproductions. Some very good and others, not so. ..

Quote:

The correct escutcheon can most likely be matched from the many available through Track of the Wolf

Thanks PetahW as I had it in mind that I could always make one but can't got wrong with this price. There are other things that I am seeing on this SideLock, that are raising some red-flags. For now I'll just watch. .....

Keep in the spirit and;
Be Safe !!!

Hawg · February 3, 2014, 07:21 PM

The screw will be wrong too but if the price doesn't go too high it would be a nice rifle. I'm betting the reserve is pretty high.

**4V50 Gary** · February 4, 2014, 07:07 AM

No, but it's an easy fix. It's no big thing to replace the washer with an appropriate part that is then inletted.

Captchee · February 4, 2014, 07:35 AM

. no the washer isnt right . but IMO there is more
a) now maybe im wrong but i dont recall the ithica rifles having a patch box .

B) look down at ?/ i think its #10 photo .
now again , i could be wrong , but i dont recall the ithica rifles having a set screw , or what ever that is , placed in the left side of the breech with the stock V'ed to access it

Chestnut Forge · February 4, 2014, 09:36 AM

Good eyes. It almost looks like it was a left hand flinter barrel and someone plugged the vent. I'd pass on this one.

Pahoo · February 4, 2014, 11:07 AM

Quote:

There are other things that I am seeing on this SideLock, that are raising some red-flags. For now I'll just watch. .....

WOW; now I'm quoting myself. I'm seeing other things in addition to what "Captchee" and "Hawg" have listed. Take a good look at that barrel and you might see what I'm seeing. I guess my main point, is that this one is, probably a kit and not all that well put together. .. ....

Quote:

Now maybe I'm wrong but i don't recall the Ithaca rifles having a patch box .

Captchee; You are correct at least a "few" pictures that I have, show no patch-box. ...

Be Safe !!!

Captchee · February 4, 2014, 07:19 PM

looking at the barrel , i dont see anything that would worry me but for what ever that screw is at the breech . the RR pipes look like they may have been soldered on . but that was common and factually how they should have been originally done . the barrel itself still shows tooling marks . but i seem to recall that also was common .
someone has scribes a center line for the front sight as well as changed the front sight but , thats not a big deal.

that screw or what ever it is in the breech would be the killer for me. If it is an old flash hole its rather far back . It should have been drilled , tapped and then filed off smooth .
But an old flash hole wouldn’t explain the V notch in the stock . I wonder if it was someone attempt at venting a percussion system and didn’t know what they were doing .
but its hard to say with such a rifle

Hawg · February 4, 2014, 07:25 PM

yeah after all that I'd have to pass on it.

**Mike Irwin** · February 4, 2014, 10:35 PM

My guess is that screw in the side of the barrel was nothing more than a mounting point for an aperture sight of some type (which might also explain the cut in the stock) and that there's a blind plug screw in the hole.

Granted, not the way I'd have done it, but really no different than cutting a dovetail in the top flat for a sight.

The barrel is marked Ithaca. But, did Ithaca even make flintlock Hawkens? As far as I know, they only made the percussion models.

shortwave · February 4, 2014, 11:37 PM

Current bid of $350.74. Somebody wants this thing bad.

Quote:

The barrel is marked Ithaca. But, did Ithaca even make flintlock Hawkens? As far as I know, they only made the percussion models

The one pictured is a caplock. Don't think Ithaca did make a flintlock Hawkens Mike. But I believe Navy Arms made a flintlock they called the Ithaca-Navy flintlock.

**Mike Irwin** · February 5, 2014, 07:57 AM

Yes, Navy Arms did make an Ithaca Hawken flintlock, but I sincerely doubt that they put Ithaca Gun Company's address on the barrel.

The gun in the ad, based on the barrel markings, WAS manufactured by the Ithaca Gun Company of Ithaca, New York.

shortwave · February 5, 2014, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Yes, Navy Arms did make an Ithaca Hawken flintlock, but I sincerely doubt that they put Ithaca Gun Company's address on the barrel.

I doubt they did either.

Captchee · February 5, 2014, 06:57 PM

the true Ithaca and the Navy Arms Ithaca were not the same .
the original Ithaca was a fairly nice piece as was the Remington
I don’t recall Ithaca making a flintlock or navy Arms in their version .
I also don’t recall the Ithaca being offered in a kit . Only a finished gun . Myself I believe the piece in question is something someone has re worked .

As to the screw in the side of the breech being some type of sight mount with a blind hole . Could be . However I would not say it would be any different then cutting a dove tail . The reason I say that is that the area of the breech plug is normally considerably thinner in wall thickness then is the bore barrel wall thickness .
This then raises the question , at least for me , who did it , was it done properly , was it drilled clear through to the plug , was it not ??? We don’t know , the seller doesn’t say . For that mater he doesn’t mention anything as to what it actually is .
So while it could be nothing , it also could be something . We just don’t know .
But IMO when we add in the very poor quality job done on the patch box . The abomination of the washer on the lock bolt . Not to mention what looks like cheep craft store brass pins holding the wedge pin echelons in place , it makes me wonder .

just to many things that should be so easly done better to then turn around and say that a blind hole was done right

PetahW · February 5, 2014, 07:08 PM

.

The gun the OP referred to didn't meet the reserve @ $354 - IMO sellers w/o knowledge are usually too proud of their wares.

They tend to research 100% originals that sold sky high, and want the same $$ for their item.

.

Pahoo · February 5, 2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

the true Ithaca and the Navy Arms Ithaca were not the same .
the original Ithaca was a fairly nice piece as was the Remington
I don’t recall Ithaca making a flintlock or navy Arms in their version .
I also don’t recall the Ithaca being offered in a kit . Only a finished gun .

That is true as the Navy Arms continued this model after Ithaca stopped production. Now, not sure if Ithaca ever made a flintlock but Navy Arms, Ithaca Hawken model did have a flinter option. I have some documentation on that. Somewhere I read that one of these folks did produce a kit but I'd have to go back and confirm. ....

I consider any home-made gun, as a kit gun whether or not is was made as such. In this case, it was cobbled together by someone. . ..

Be Safe !!!

February 3, 2014, 01:28 PM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	No, it doesn't look correct. The Ithaca Hawkens I've seen have had an inlet eschtcheon for the screw, like this one: http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armsl...hawken_640.jpg My guess is that the escutcheon popped out and he replaced it with that thing... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 4, 2014, 07:07 AM	#8
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,847	No, but it's an easy fix. It's no big thing to replace the washer with an appropriate part that is then inletted. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

February 4, 2014, 10:35 PM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	My guess is that screw in the side of the barrel was nothing more than a mounting point for an aperture sight of some type (which might also explain the cut in the stock) and that there's a blind plug screw in the hole. Granted, not the way I'd have done it, but really no different than cutting a dovetail in the top flat for a sight. The barrel is marked Ithaca. But, did Ithaca even make flintlock Hawkens? As far as I know, they only made the percussion models. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 5, 2014, 07:57 AM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yes, Navy Arms did make an Ithaca Hawken flintlock, but I sincerely doubt that they put Ithaca Gun Company's address on the barrel. The gun in the ad, based on the barrel markings, WAS manufactured by the Ithaca Gun Company of Ithaca, New York. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

February 3, 2014, 12:50 PM	#1
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Does this Ithaca, look right to you. Fellas, if you would, look at this picture #10, on this Ithaca SideLock. There is a backing washer on the lock-plate screw. It looks odd to me and feel that it is not original. You seldom see these Ithaca Hawken models and perhaps one of you, out there, can give me some feedback on it. Any and all information would be appreciated. .... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=390771720 Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing. Last edited by Pahoo; February 3, 2014 at 01:39 PM.

February 3, 2014, 01:20 PM	#2
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Looking at some pics of other guns, I didn't see it.

February 3, 2014, 02:28 PM	#5
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. Since the Ithaca Hawken was only made for one year, I'd WAG the issue won't have much outcome on the final sales price. The correct estucheon can most likely be matched from the many available through Track of the Wolf, the Hawken Shop, and other parts vendors, even though the original parts were custom-made by Cherry Corners (OH). http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...868/1/SP-HLB-B .

February 3, 2014, 07:21 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	The screw will be wrong too but if the price doesn't go too high it would be a nice rifle. I'm betting the reserve is pretty high.

February 4, 2014, 07:35 AM	#9
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	. no the washer isnt right . but IMO there is more a) now maybe im wrong but i dont recall the ithica rifles having a patch box . B) look down at ?/ i think its #10 photo . now again , i could be wrong , but i dont recall the ithica rifles having a set screw , or what ever that is , placed in the left side of the breech with the stock V'ed to access it

February 4, 2014, 09:36 AM	#10
Chestnut Forge Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2013 Location: Polk, Pa Posts: 123	Captchee Good eyes. It almost looks like it was a left hand flinter barrel and someone plugged the vent. I'd pass on this one. __________________ Every gun I've been behind can out shoot me.

February 4, 2014, 07:19 PM	#12
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	looking at the barrel , i dont see anything that would worry me but for what ever that screw is at the breech . the RR pipes look like they may have been soldered on . but that was common and factually how they should have been originally done . the barrel itself still shows tooling marks . but i seem to recall that also was common . someone has scribes a center line for the front sight as well as changed the front sight but , thats not a big deal. that screw or what ever it is in the breech would be the killer for me. If it is an old flash hole its rather far back . It should have been drilled , tapped and then filed off smooth . But an old flash hole wouldn’t explain the V notch in the stock . I wonder if it was someone attempt at venting a percussion system and didn’t know what they were doing . but its hard to say with such a rifle

February 4, 2014, 07:25 PM	#13
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,190	yeah after all that I'd have to pass on it.

February 5, 2014, 06:57 PM	#18
Captchee Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2013 Posts: 439	the true Ithaca and the Navy Arms Ithaca were not the same . the original Ithaca was a fairly nice piece as was the Remington I don’t recall Ithaca making a flintlock or navy Arms in their version . I also don’t recall the Ithaca being offered in a kit . Only a finished gun . Myself I believe the piece in question is something someone has re worked . As to the screw in the side of the breech being some type of sight mount with a blind hole . Could be . However I would not say it would be any different then cutting a dove tail . The reason I say that is that the area of the breech plug is normally considerably thinner in wall thickness then is the bore barrel wall thickness . This then raises the question , at least for me , who did it , was it done properly , was it drilled clear through to the plug , was it not ??? We don’t know , the seller doesn’t say . For that mater he doesn’t mention anything as to what it actually is . So while it could be nothing , it also could be something . We just don’t know . But IMO when we add in the very poor quality job done on the patch box . The abomination of the washer on the lock bolt . Not to mention what looks like cheep craft store brass pins holding the wedge pin echelons in place , it makes me wonder . just to many things that should be so easly done better to then turn around and say that a blind hole was done right

February 5, 2014, 07:08 PM	#19
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. The gun the OP referred to didn't meet the reserve @ $354 - IMO sellers w/o knowledge are usually too proud of their wares. They tend to research 100% originals that sold sky high, and want the same $$ for their item. .