Shotgun Reloading ( is it worth it )

[olddrum1]

I have a buddy that is actually cheaper than I am. He picks up wads at our local trap range and recycles them. He will shoot them more than once. These he uses for race loads. Says they seal better and he gets better distance out of them.

[sesquipedalian101]

Originally Posted by olddrum1

I have a buddy that is actually cheaper than I am. He picks up wads at our local trap range and recycles them. He will shoot them more than once. These he uses for race loads. Says they seal better and he gets better distance out of them.

Originally Posted by Ruger4570

Seswhatthehellkindanameisthatquipedalion101: I sure have to admire your desires, but, regardless of the cleanup, plastic wads just give you better patterns and velocity. I have used Nitro
cards and fiber fillers, I even go way back to Alcan Air Wedges in my loading. In the 12 guage, I use a lot of 700X, bigger containers and cheaper powder. I have used brass hulls MANY years ago, but today, the grief ain't worth the pain.

First things first: sesquipedalian Noun. From Latin
sesquipedalis literally meaning "a foot and a half long."

1) A lover of polysyllabic words.

Personal motto: Never use a BIG word when a diminutive one will suffice.

= = = = = =

I am actually following several trains of thought...

On alternative wadding: For starters, our "range" is actually in the hay field out back. Aside from not liking the "littered look" of wadding laying everywhere, I am a wee bit concerned about the wads getting bailed up and fed to the horses this winter. So, for now, we pick them up. I hadn't thought about re-using them, but that would be recycling for sure. I could probably try a few loads just to see if that works and how many times they can be reused.

I am aware of the "cone effect" that one sometimes gets with the older style "non-cup" wadding where shot next to the barrel gets deformed and doesn't fly true. I've seen the results in the dust of the "South Forty" on the ranch where I grew up (long story). You'd actually get a "line" of dust fanning out from the barrel -- pretty impressive -- but a sure indication that the center of the pattern was a bit "sparse."

On the other hand, I've seen some pretty good arguments (or at least arguments possessing verisimilitude) about how one can obtain patterns approaching those from "shot cups" and "power pistons" with "Traditional Techniques"; albeit, using properly designed, modern (bio-degradable) components. Part of the claim seems to rest upon the ability to "fill the shell" more reliably and get cleaner more consistent ignitions which makes up, in part, for the "lost" shot. (Id est: you don't need as much shot in the air if it always travels at the same speed and arrives at the same place in the same amount of time shot after shot -- or so the theory seems to be.) Of course, these articles generally appear on the pages of vendors selling the aforementioned materials...

I suppose, if traditional loads don't work out as well as advertised, I'll be stuck with 'em -- probably have to shoot 'em up (oh, darn! ) Still, it seems worth trying a few loads to see what happens; after all, we are just busting some clay pigeons for fun, not shooting for food or competition (***).

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Begin Sidebar Explanatory Digression
(***) Okay, even if there is no "competition" there is a bit of rivalry. For example, being cheap beggars (you probably couldn't tell that from my previous posts!), we get as much "mileage" out of each pigeon as we can. Often, there are two or three (sometimes all five) of us lined up for one bird. The fellow (or lady) with the smallest gun (or poorest record) gets the first shot. If s/he misses, the next person gets a crack at it.

Anymore, number two seldom gets a shot; number three almost never -- though, occasionally, when somebody just "wings" a bird, the next shooter in line will break the biggest piece. The competitive part comes in trying to force the people who are twiddling their thumbs to ask for a "rotation." (Cheapskate Note: We also pick up the birds that "escape" -- maybe four or five per case -- and throw them again )

When I get the opportunity to "sneak out" I'll sometimes go solo for a while. We just have a couple of little spring-powered el-cheapo throwers, so I usually take out the one mounted on the old car wheel. Because it isn't anchored to the ground, I need two hands to cock it, so I wind up setting the thrower, putting on a bird or two, triggering the release, picking up the shotgun, standing up, working the action, blasting the bird, setting down the shotgun, and repeating the cycle. Number Two Son watched me doing this one day and thought I was "showing off," so now he starts that way except with the shotgun unloaded -- just to show me up... As I said, there is a wee bit of rivalry now and again

End Sidebar Explanatory Digression

==============
On Brass Shells: I've noticed that people these days often purchase the civilian version of a particular firearm for which they developed a fondness during military service. Apparently, this is not a new phenomenon because my Dad showed the same trait. He bought the "sporting versions" of the Remington Model 10 and Winchester 1897 shotguns when he got out of the Army at the end of WWI; I eventually inherited them.

With full chokes and 29+ inches of barrel, instead of the "trench configuration" the military used, they will reach out 50 to 60 yards and "powder" clays using modern loads. Of course, during the war, the military used brass shotgun shells. I am curious to see just how well brass does/does not work in shotguns built during the heyday of paper and brass shells.

I also ran across a web site on brass shot shell reloading and exchanged several emails with the site's author. The fellow, apparently now in his 70's, was the "reloading master" in the development lab for a major reloading component manufacturer back in the late 60's early 70's. He really likes reloading brass for the .410 and says that one can get 1000-plus loadings out of a brass cartridge IF (notice, this is a BIG IF?) you start with unfired brass and anneal it before it goes anywhere near a reloading bench. He then says to anneal the brass again every six (6) reloads -- or more often if you can -- and you'll get excellent longevity (barring stepping on them or, as Ruger4570 points out, denting them). I don't figure I'll buy a lot of them...

In 12 gauge, the "Lathe Turned" hulls are about $4.50 each -- so a box of 10 would be my experimentation limit. The lathe-turned, of course, have the advantage of using "standard sized" components. Id est, you can use all the same components you would use in a roll-crimped plastic shell because the internal & external dimensions are the same. In theory, they should de-prim, prime, charge, and take a plastic wad and shot all on the same press I am using for plastic. The crimping stage would, of course, be omitted in favor of an overshot card and some Duco Cement. With their heavy walls, these shells are supposed to last a long time.

In 12 gauge, extruded brass hulls are about $0.75 each. The major draw-back is that the necessary components are not directly interchangeable with modern components -- and, because of the thinner walls, you have to know your sizes. The Magtech 12 gauge hull takes large pistol primers and, I believe, requires an 11 gauge undershot card and a 10 gauge overshot card. Some people claim that, with proper annealing, one can roll crimp the end slightly to avoid the problems associated with using waterglass or Duco Cement alone (if not sealed properly, recoil from first round sometimes causes rounds in the magazine to open up). Again, this is all for experimentation purposes. If I'm not going to save a lot of money reloading (which I am not until the boys are out of the house and living in another county or state), I might as well have some fun with it...

On Roll Crimping: This is what I am really "hot" to try. I can remember roll-crimped shells (mostly paper) from my youth. So when I spotted a box of Federal HiPower, roll-crimped plastic .410 shells, with plastic wad/shot cups, I bought it. Wow! My little .410 is a nice shotgun! It will "compete" right along side the 12 gauges in the "pigeon line" mentioned above. That said, this box of shells easily made it about 20% more effective. So far as I can tell, the main difference is the ignition consistency had from the roll crimp. Regardless, I am slavering to try my luck with roll crimping (which I'll probably need to do with the bio loads I plan to try in the plastic 12 gauge hulls).

So, again, anybody got any thoughts on good choice for a roll crimper?

Okay, I've rambled more than enough for one (several?) post(s). Thanks again, everyone for the feedback and the encouragement... Assuming I don't blow up, I'll be back with more questions and, maybe, some results...

-101-

[BigJimP]

Since I've enjoyed reading your notes - sorry, but I have no idea where you can get a roll crimper. good luck with your project.

[Edward429451]

BPI for the roll crimper. I have one and it works great on my drill press. I havent been reloading SG for very long but I think it is worth it as a hedge against inflation and it is very satisfing to roll your own slugs. I bought the Lyman foster type slug mould and it makes very nice slugs. With 29gr of Unique it was softer on the shoulder than I had anticipated, gave a full 1250 fps and I was hitting 12 X 24 target at 100 yds with it, uh, fairly regularly.

At 50 60 yds I was real consistent with them. Thanks to crowbeaner for giving me lots of good advice in pursuing this. I have pics, lemme see if I can find them to show you how good the roll crimper comes out.

[Edward429451]

Ah here they are.

[sesquipedalian101]

Nice Slugs! (Note: This is NOT an expression to use anywhere within 100yds of my wife's garden!)

So, though it might reduce accuracy, I am wondering what would happen if you cut the nose off flat, turned the slug around and loaded the base with BBs... It might be interesting to see what that sort of "buck and ball" ("BB and ball"?) would do...

Durn, something's going to explode before I get done tinkering; probably DW's temper...

-101-

[Edward429451]

Thanks. I had the thoughts of maybe making up some exotic or unconventional loads myself and when I asked about it, boy people came out of the woodwork and told me enough horror stories to make me decide not to!

Standard book loads are very satisfying to shoot and make! be safe and don't take the chance.

[sesquipedalian101]

Okay, here's one to draw people out of the woodwork...

I had a "strange" experience this past weekend and, no, it did not involve "inhaling" -- unless you count the sulpher fumes off my son's BP Dragoon Colt...

I had (operative word here is "had") about 300 "Gun Club" reloads; my Favorite Niece (FN) happened to be in town, so we invited her to "come shoot with the family." In the past, this has always been a humbling experience, particularly for my sons, because etiquette dictates "ladies first" and when we line up to "recycle one bird," this means, in the case of this young lady, a lot of time spent watching birds powder and not much time shooting…

…except this past weekend…

As I said, I had several boxes of reloaded "Game Club" shells. Now, in my brief experience at this, I've found some drawbacks to the "Game Club" hulls. The biggest is that I lose about 5 to 10% of them per reloading cycle -- mostly because their green color blends in with the grass and they tend to either get stepped on or overlooked and left out until they are not usable… That said, I had finally managed to set up my press to load & crimp them perfectly -- or so I thought.

This particular batch was loaded pretty heavy -- about 30grs of Longshot, 1-3/16 oz #8, Remington 209s & Winchester WAA wads -- and though I thought it nice (not much of a lead required to hit the pigeon), DW has a light, recoil operated, Savage semi-auto and they were beating her up pretty badly…

…So, we figured this weekend, with DW off doing "other stuff," was a good time to use them up. FN brought along a gas-operated Remington 1100 figuring that would absorb some of the recoil. I've never shot (really, never seen) an 1100 before, so maybe somebody out there can tell me if what happened is weird or is a "natural result" of the combination of gun and ammo…

FN loaded two rounds into her 1100 to be ready for the second and third birds (I shot the first one from the hip with a '97 I just finished rebuilding -- I figured, if there were problems, I'd get more help before the shooting session got fully underway; but, that's another story.)

So, second bird flies & FN powders it; the rest of us sigh -- it's going to be a long afternoon… Third bird goes, the 1100 goes "click, pop, whoosh" & #3 Son, ever the optimist & the only one not staring in shock at the pigeon departing unscathed, gets it…

Okay, so I apparently loaded a squib. I turned out a number of squibs for #3 son's %$#@ 16 gauge; I had a really hard time getting the crimp right… I haven't had any in the 12 gauge batches for a LONG time; still, I was motoring along pretty quickly when I loaded this batch; maybe I screwed up…

So, we clean the unburned powder & residue out of FN's gun; she loads up two, and we go again. First shell goes bang; bird goes poof… Second shell goes "click, pop, whoosh" and, this time, #2 Son (never an optimist; but, ever the opportunist) gets it… I get to help FN clean her shotgun again while a number of other birds go whizzing to destruction using the same batch of shells…

Okay, time to change tactics. FN loads the shotgun -- one shell -- and breaks a bird. FN loads the shotgun -- one shell -- and breaks a bird. FN loads the shotgun -- two shells -- and breaks the first bird then gets "click, pop, whoosh" on the second round (note: three "backup" shotguns take down the fleeing bird; some of the kids may be slow learners; but, unlike me, they had already spotted "a pattern of opportunity").

Alright, once is bad luck; twice is coincidence; three times is enemy action. We clean the shotgun (and listen to everybody else having fun)… again… Then we take a closer look at the spent hulls… (No, we hadn't done that yet; they are hard to find in the green grass and, remember, I figured they were just "bad.") We find two hulls that are slightly "melted and burned" around the end. My theory at this point, is that the recoil from the first round is making the crimp on the second round "open up" then the resulting poor ignition is causing the powder to "sit there and burn" for a long time (relatively speaking), thus melting the end of the hull. The only thing "odd" about this theory is that both hulls are "burned" in a circle about 1/4 inch in diameter on just one side of the crimp…

So, we load two shells into FN's shotgun & try again. First shell goes "bang" & bird breaks; (biggest piece is picked off by youngest son -- showoff). Then we carefully unload the second shell expecting to find the crimp unfolded slightly… Wrong! The shell is still tightly crimped -- except for a spot, about 1/4 inch in diameter that is burned/melted on the end of the still closed, crimped, & unfired shell!

So, I'm not familiar with the Remington 1100 (except for disassembling one, this past weekend, for multiple cleanings ). We had no failures in any of the other shotguns (except when we tried the "melted shell" and, sure enough, got a "squib" out of it). This good fortune included DW's recoil-operated semi-auto -- with a somewhat exasperated FN operating it and rubbing her shoulder.

We, of course, quit using the 1100 for that session with that ammo. Though, I suppose it could have served as a single-shot, we weren't sure if there was some sort of "hot spot" inside the chamber or if the diverted gas cycling the action was somehow causing the problem while the round was still in the magazine or if there was simply something about the combination of that, plus heavy loads, plus "Gun Club" hulls with a lot of mileage on them that was causing the problems.

Of course, FN is back home on the coast w/her 1100 so, protracted examination/experimentation is not possible. Anybody have an idea and/or experience that might shed light on what we observed?

IMWTK!
- 101 -

[BigJimP]

I have no clue .....and I'm not a Rem 1100 expert ....but its a hell of a story...

Not that it matters, but my grandaughters - are a heck of a lot better shooters than their fathers / or their brothers so far at this age especially..... ( but my boys both married well, so my grandkids won't be ugly and stupid )...

[sesquipedalian101]

BigJimP:

Congratulations on the "pretty" and "smart" (or was it "pretty smart") grandkids!

So I have another "reloading" question...

As I work over shotguns (or rifles or pistols), particularly "acquisitions" with which I am not previously familiar, I like to put a couple of "extra heavy" rounds through them and check the chamber/barrel for signs of "bulging" or "expansion" when done. To do this, I typically set them off remotely or, if I'm 99.44% sure that everything is sound, from a "hip shot." I just don't like to put something "unstressed" up next to my face on the first few shots.

With black powder, the "rule of thumb" is a "double charge" with cartridge loads, if you follow the "British Method," you take a "heavy" albeit "within the normal range" load and grease the casing to stress the action...

Does anybody out there know of a resource for the loadings one might use to "proof" shotguns? Obviously, one could "go off the charts" on a normal reloading process; however, the relationship between powder, shot, velocity, and pressures is not always "linear."

If you happen to extrapolate from a realtively "flat" part of the charge curve past a deflection point, pressure could climb exponentially (and catastrophically). So, rather than re-invent the wheel (or pick up pieces of my shotgun from down range), does anyone have a source for such loadings?

Thanks!!
-101-

[kozak6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test might give you some ideas.

That being said, I hope you don't hurt yourself too bad, or blow up too many shotguns.

Sounds awfully and unnecessarily dangerous, though.

[sesquipedalian101]

kozak6:

Thanks for the link; it does, indeed, provide some useful ideas...

My main problem is finding information that pertains to shotguns. No doubt, SAAMI has something; I haven't checked yet. Regardless, once I get the pressure, et cetera specs, I still need to find the loading info... The tables I have available do not intentionally "exceed the maximum safe pressures" -- funny thing

Oh, and I do appreciate the caution to be careful -- without the "don't do it" warning; thanks!

I am continually amazed, however, by some "gun enthusiasts" who seem to have a "double standard" operating in their lives. I know several, for example, who are "gear heads" as well as "gun nuts." They will solemnly tell me that working on my own firearms is frightfully dangerous, then go out and replace the brakes on their '57 Chevy…

I do a lot of machining -- and I'm pretty darn careful about it. (I am also, if I do say so myself, fairly creative -- I consider myself to be a "disciple" of Dave Gingery.) Personally, I don't see the "danger" in making parts to restore a firearm as being inherently greater than, say, building a gear for an old chainsaw or re-building a clutch disc. If either of the latter items come apart at 6K RPM, it is going to spoil my whole day (ever see a bell housing after a clutch explosion?)

I know that today's "proofing" facilities (I guess they are called "houses" in Europe) use "crush" gauges and magna-flux equipment; once upon a time, this gear was not available and firearms were still successfully "proofed"; I am looking for methods that can be duplicated in the small, home shop…

…For example, in the 1700's and 1800's lots of "backwoods blacksmiths" turned out rifles of exceptional accuracy. They made all the necessary parts, including the barrel, by hand. The barrel was "cut rifled" (still considered by some to be the superior method) using a home-made jig, a home-made rod, a home-made barrel, and a day or two of careful labor. The resulting firearm often met or exceeded the much vaunted "minute of accuracy" that is the "silver standard" in today's manufacture… Before I am done, I intend to duplicate that process…

As for the proofing itself, my intent is to be sure what I work on is safe. At present, with regular firearms, I do a "lead slug" of the chamber & measure; do two "proof shots"; do another "lead slug" and look for differences between the first and second slug. Of course, if a firearm ever exploded, I would probably forgo the second lead slug

Regardless, thanks for the link.

-101-

[olddrum1]

This is just a thought. Take several shells apart and take a close look at the longshot powder. I would also shake the container up you are shooting out of and take a good look at say a half cup of the longshot powder. Make sure that it is consistent and does not have a second type of powder mixed in with it. It might behoove you to contact Hogdons and tell them what is happening. I would really not shoot any of that container of powder, until I was certain that it is of good quality.