How many more Polymer-framed, Striker-fired Service Pistols do we really want or need?

[JDBerg]

So if that CZ P-10c model, and the concept it represents, really takes off for CZ, I would certainly hate to see CZ begin to phase out the traditional DA/SA metal-framed hammer-fired service pistols, in favor of more variations of the striker-fired polymer framed models. There is no doubt that the profit potential is there for CZ, the P-10c polymer framed striker guns are a lot cheaper to produce, but sell for not that much less than their base 75B guns.

We’ve all seen it before; S&W abandoning the 3rd Gen guns in favor of the M&P’s, FN dropping the Hi-Power in favor of their polymer framed guns like the FN 509. I hope we don’t see it again, but I can foresee the cheaper steel & alloy framed, hammer fired CZ’s giving way to more renditions of the polymer striker guns. I can imagine what will happen to the 92/96 series now that Beretta has lost their U.S. military business, and they are introducing more polymer framed models into their lineup, while they have not been adding to their traditional 92 & 96 lineup.

I think it’s inevitable that more of this product & market shift is going to happen, but we might have to buy one to have one of these traditional CZ, Beretta, (and Sig?) pistols before they are discontinued. So what do you all think?

[cslinger]

I think if you want a traditional steel or alloy framed pistol that is not a 1911 I would buy it way sooner then later.

[PushPuller]

I think I need to buy more metal framed/ hammer fired CZs. Iv just recently became a HUGE fan of the CZ 75B. Iv since added the P-01, and the 75D PCR to the soon to own list. Iv also been looking at getting the stainless version of the 75B. I have full intentions of stocking up before they are phased out of production, which I don't foresee being very soon (2-10 years) if at all.

Part of the fan boy mentality I have for CZ is born out of disappointment with other brands and their emphasis on polymer handgun production. I not only dislike the feel of almost every polymer pistol I ever had experience with but they generally don't shoot well enough for me to make the sacrifice in preferred production material.

Luckily I LOVE surplus pistols and 1911s too.

[Fishbed77]

Part of the fan boy mentality I have for CZ is born out of disappointment with other brands and their emphasis on polymer handgun production. I not only dislike the feel of almost every polymer pistol I ever had experience with but they generally don't shoot well enough for me to make the sacrifice in preferred production material.

I don’t have a horse in this race one way or the other, since I own and enjoy both polymer and metal-framed pistols, but I can state for a fact that my polymer-framed CZ P07 is both more accurate and has lower felt recoil than my CZ-75B, so there is more to shootability than just the material of a pistol’s frame.

[JohnKSa]

When people stop buying them, the gun makers will quite making new ones.

[Hal]

I love guns with a soul - - which eliminates plastic ones.
Guns should also have a hammer...

Having said that.

The light weight of my S&W .45 Shield sure beats how my Colt Commander drags down my wearccw t-shirt.
(no affiliation with them - just a satisfied customer)

[TunnelRat]

The gunmakers make what people buy, as pointed out above. Basically all of the major players now make a striker fired polymer pistol so I don't see a ton more coming to market. Will that eliminate other pistols? It might in the long run. I think the CZ 75 pattern is likely safe for some time given its popularity.

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[JDBerg]

Originally Posted by TunnelRat:

I think the CZ 75 pattern is likely safe for some time given its popularity

Not very popular out here in CO due to the >15 rd. capacity with the CZ OEM and MecGar magazines. You have to go with a 10 round boxed set to buy a new 75 pattern CZ here. I brought my 75B out from PA when I moved out here, but I couldn’t sell it in-state with the 16 rd. mags I have if I wanted to sell it which I’d never do anyway. Although I was able to get 2 MacGar 17 rd. magazine “parts kits” at an LGS south of Denver, who sells the boxed magazine disassembled as “parts”.

Now, aren’t you glad you don’t live in a mag cap limited state?

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by JDBerg

How many more Polymer-framed, Striker-fired Service Pistols do we really want or need?

As many as it takes until someone finally really gets it right?

I think they're getting closer...

[Siggy-06]

1911's, CZ 75's, and Beretta 92/M9's are going to be around for a long time. Not worried about finding any of those in my lifetime.

[HiBC]

Its not a sinister plot.
I certainly do not advocate a government regulatory organization dictating an arms manufacturer "MUST" include a certain number of walnut,blue steel,checkered,beautiful traditional firearms.

A whole lot of folks who have never fired them appreciate the Colt Diamondback,Python,and Anaconda.

Anybody making them?

I don't expect any manufacturer to operate as a non-profit organization.

We vote with our dollars.If Colt found the Python still profitable,they likely would still make pythons.

They can offer us more value in a frame that takes 30 seconds to mold ,and nearly zero material goes to chips.

A steel frame requires(usually) intricate machining time,with cost of cutters,scrap,and deburring.

Polymer striker guns use stampings,MIM,or parts(such as barrel) designed for straightforward machining.

Part of the equation of "Quality" is perceived value received for the dollar.

Example,a hot seller is a $400+ ,20oz+ pretty good carry gun,the Shield.45 ACP
It hold the same 7 rounds in a mag the original full size 1911 holds. It weighs far less than a subcompact 1911 and it works.

I can buy 3,maybe 4 of them for the price of one fine Wilson 1911 based compact 45.

I might not EVER feel like I can afford the Wilson,but I may find a few hundred for the Shield. Then I'm armed,with the same 7 rds 45 ACP,and it will work.

That settles out in the bottom line of what gets made.

[MandolinMan]

I find myself regretting not buying more browning Hi Powers back when they were more affordable.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Sig or CZ trimming down their selection of traditional metal framed pistols in the future.

[tipoc]

Actually we don't vote with our dollars. Capitalism doesn't work that way.

Manufacturers globally are making more polymer framed guns. This is because the rate of return is better than the rate of return on on steel framed pistols. It's useful to go back to Paul Barrett's book on the rise of Glock to see how this worked out in practice.

It cost Glock in the late 1980's and through the 1990s less than $150. per unit to produce and distribute their gun. This allowed them to sell their gun for less than the cost of most metal framed guns and simultaneously draw a better rate of return (more profit) per unit. This, and some smart marketing, allowed them to enter the U.S. market and basically give their guns away to law enforcement and gradually force S&W and others out of that market.

It comes down to this: it cost less to produce a polymer framed gun in time, materiel and wear on equipment. It costs even less if you use immigrant labor or drive down the cost of labor. It costs less if you produce a gun in Turkey, the Philippines, Serbia, etc. Yet your return on your dollar of investment can be triple or quadruple what it is to produce a quality steel or allow framed gun. That drives the production.

There is a glut in the polymer framed gun market at present. The cost of these guns to consumers continues to drop. With it the rate of profit for the bosses. This forces improvements to the guns and a leg up on the competition.

tipoc

[JohnKSa]

It comes down to this: it cost less to produce a polymer framed gun ... it is to produce a quality steel or allow framed gun. That drives the production.

Almost correct.

It drives production as long as consumers keep buying the product. When consumers stop voting with their dollars and the manufacturers can't sell what they make, low manufacturing costs are meaningless.

[TunnelRat]

John is firing on all cylinders. The book tipoc mentions also details how companies like S&W had become complacent by the time Glock came along. Gaston Glock also specifically hired people with experience when designing and marketing his pistol. It wasn't simply a matter of cost. People had to like the pistol too and Glock knew that when he started.

It was no small feat for the relatively unknown Austrian to rise to the level of success of today. Now there was plenty done along the way that isn't exactly commendable, but that's true of many companies.

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[tipoc]

Well, close.

The decline of the rate of profit drives innovation. This sells guns. It's why the M&P series has placed S&W back as a player and in the poly gun market. The same for the Sig line. This in turn forced Glock to respond.

The major consumers, by importance, for handguns are institutions. The military and police markets. These drive the market, and to a large extent innovation. They are a cushion for the industry. Guns used by the military and law enforcement become the most desired guns in the commercial market. They become the most popular consumers guns. The individuals consumers dollar follows this lead. It does not drive it.

tipoc

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by tipoc

Well, close.

The decline of the rate of profit drives innovation. This sells guns. It's why the M&P series has placed S&W back as a player and in the poly gun market. The same for the Sig line. This in turn forced Glock to respond.

The major consumers, by importance, for handguns are institutions. The military and police markets. These drive the market, and to a large extent innovation. They are a cushion for the industry. Guns used by the military and law enforcement become the most desired guns in the commercial market. They become the most popular consumers guns. The individuals consumers dollar follows this lead. It does not drive it.

tipoc

Don't underestimate the importance of individual consumers when talking the US market. HK did this and suffered for it given their cash flow problems. Even mighty Glock still makes plenty of effort to attract civilian sales. When talking police and military contracts some designs are successful and others are not, and that success is not solely dictated by price. Often the features that law enforcement looks for can be seen as applicable to civilian shooters as well. Not all of them, but often more than is given credit IMO.

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[FrankenMauser]

How many do we need?
All of them.

How many do we want?
Some people want more than others.


Though I generally prefer a hammer and steel, I don't actually avoid striker-fired plastic pistols. That being said...

At this point, I'm down to zero.
Every semi-auto that I currently own is hammer-fired (SA-only or DA/SA), and all were made prior to 2000 -- with an average age of 36 years old.
Only one has a polymer frame - the Ruger P95DC.


Many of my friends, however, own nothing but fairly new striker-fired plastic wonders; with a few exceptions of the obligatory 1911 that they never actually shoot.

[Cosmodragoon]

I understand that it is cheaper to produce striker-fired stuff and the system seems less complicated for some shooters. The market is certainly full of them already so I tend to look at what new things any new arrivals have to offer. Nothing in this category has been particularly interesting to me since maybe the PPS, which is no longer cutting edge.

I'm just one guy and not representative of anything like a majority but I'd be interested in the following things:

- More exploration of rotating-barrel designs,

- More guns with "European" paddle-style mag releases,

- Some proper, nicely ergonomic, compact, single-stack, polymer, hammer-fired DA/SA guns with decocker only. Yeah, this one is technically outside of the category in question but it bugs me that none seem to exist. I'd love to see something like the PPS in my desired action style. Maybe I'll get lucky and some employee in R&D somewhere will be strolling through the forums looking for the next big idea?

[HiBC]

You mentioned rotating barrel.
Long enough ago the brand new price to me was about $75,I bought a French
MAB PA-15 9mm. Doublestack,hammer,single action,rotating barrel lockup.

I no longer have it,but IMO,it was a good gun for the time.

[Fishbed77]

The individuals consumers dollar follows this lead. It does not drive it.

Not always. Consider the recent developments in the AR market. Many advancements (midlength gas systems, free-float rail systems, Keymod, M-Lok, etc,) were pioneered and became financially profitable on the civilian/consumer market long before military adoption.

[johnwilliamson062]

I don't think they are making marketing decisions in the way proposed by OP.
The metal framed pistols aren't selling at volume. There are TOnS of used guns on the market undermining new production. They are going away irrespective of whether polymer models are introduced.

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[OhioGuy]

What I would love to see?

Pistols with 4" barrels, but subcompact grips.

Glock 19 slide with Glock 26 body. PPQ M2 slide with PPQ SC body. Then the option to use the full mags when wanted...but shorter and more concealable mags when desired.

Right now, buying a P320 Compact, then swapping the slide onto a subcompact frame is about the only choice. And if I had all the budget in the world, and confidence in the Romeo 1 optic for real "duty" use, I'd by the P320 RX and put that baby onto the smaller frame and call it a day.

Glock made a 19X that put the 19 slide onto a 17 frame...'twould be great to see them do the same but with a 26 frame!

[tipoc]

Don't underestimate the importance of individual consumers when talking the US market. HK did this and suffered for it given their cash flow problems. Even mighty Glock still makes plenty of effort to attract civilian sales. When talking police and military contracts some designs are successful and others are not, and that success is not solely dictated by price. Often the features that law enforcement looks for can be seen as applicable to civilian shooters as well. Not all of them, but often more than is given credit IMO.

Good points.

There is a whole billion dollar industry that builds and supplies aftermarket parts and add- ons for firearms that largely targets the commercial market. Optics, lasers, sights, grips, etc., etc. This is a part of the firearms industry.

The success of polymer framed guns is not just a matter of better profit for gunmakers. It's what they guns brought: ease of maintenance, low cost of the same, durability, etc. these are popular features. But these features of polymer framed guns had to be "proven" in the shooting public's mind before the guns took off on the consumer market and that "proof" came from leo and military sales and experience.

It takes more to penetrate the international firearms market than just a good design. Glock knew this and targeted the leo market in the U.S. in the late 80s for that reason.

The AR is a good example of this. It did not really begin to take off in the civilian market till the 1990s and really took off after the turn of the century. Americans were suspicious of the rifle and it's caliber for a long time. A need and desire for the gun had to be created. That took a cultural shift.

Experience in combat and veterans buying them in the consumer market led to their rise in the U.S. Consumer dollars have driven it as well as the low cost of production of these rifles and carbines and a relatively high cost to the consumer in relation to that.

Military and police use of the AR have created a demand for the guns with similar features, and aftermarket parts and additions to it.

There is a symbiosis here.

After awhile it's like any other industry. The big boys come to dominate the market. Others fall away or drop out.

tipoc

[hdwhit]

JDBerg asked:
How many more Polymer-framed, Striker-fired Service Pistols do we really want or need?

In a capitalist society, the answer always is: "As many as the market will bear."