I have 3 options for my first semi, need help

[necroram]

Hi, Im new here. First off I dont live in the US just so you guys know.

My 3 available options are (local prices):
CZ Bren 2Ms .223 11" barrel (~$2,990.85)

Diamondback Carbon Series DB15 .223 12.5" barrel (made in USA, ~$2741):
https://diamondbackfirearms.com/port...uth-exclusive/

ADC AR15 M5 Plus .223 12.5" barrel (made in Italy, ~$2741, comes with a Chinese knock-off EoTech HWS EXPS3-0 and a magnifier):
https://www.adccustom.com/m5/

Always wanted an AR15 but the Bren 2 has been on my radar since it came out and I just saw it in one of our local stores the other day and its really got me hooked. Bren is the shortest in overall length which is preferable for my height and build. I also really liked the look and feel of it in my hand, plus its well known, tried and tested unlike the other 2 manufacturers which Ive never heard of before.

As such, I need your help to decide in case anyone here has had experience with one of these manufacturers/guns.

I do non-competitive hobby shooting in a closed off 50m range for the most part. I do prefer a shorter gun. We have a minimum length restriction of 800mm here, so the ARs cant be shorter than 12.5", but the stock on the Bren is fixed by a pin and non-telescoping so they could get away with an 11" barrel, but I can just mod it and remove that pin post-purchase or just replace the stock, so the idea of having a shorter gun is really enticing.

As for the ARs, the store clerk for the ADC model said its got a heavier barrel so that I could shoot both .223 civilian and 5.56 military rounds which I allegedly couldnt on the Bren, though I havent found any confirmation of this and the official site doesnt mention 5.56 at all, nor does any review of the Bren say you cant shoot 5.56 with it, so need your insight on this too.

Overall, I like the Bren the most and 90% decided on it, just need to see some expert opinion just in case.

Thanks

[totaldla]

Way too much money!

[necroram]

Originally Posted by totaldla

Way too much money!

True but those are the only options available, theres a 30% customs tax + whatever the stores decide as the mark up. I cant import from abroad, the fact they even have the Bren here is already surprising and amazing, its only recently we've started getting any good western guns in here

[Destructo6]

Typically I'd ask, "Do you not have an AR yet? If not, then buy one."

In the USA, they are ubiquitous, So, parts of all qualities and prices everywhere. Lots of experience with the system in the population, too.

That Diamondback Carbon Series DB15 is a $700 rifle, so it is nothing special and paying another $2,000 because it's available seems insane to me.

I'd probably also lean toward the CZ Bren2 MS. The USA street price is in the $1,500 range, so quite a bit closer to your price. The CZ-USA site claims both 5.56 and .223, so your dealer may be misinformed. Send CZ an email and ask them about the ammo, but I don't think it will be an issue.

[stagpanther]

Necroam--I assume you are not in the US? I think what people are saying is that it would not be worth the premium you'd pay for mediocre consumer grade (yeah, I know, lots of you shoot them .25 MOA all day and night too). Assuming you're in Europe--yup the Bren sounds like the better value.

[rickyrick]

I think that it is cool that you can have barrels that short, not sure what your laws are like there.

[armoredman]

I have a BREN 2 pistol just like that - MUCH more accurate than people think, good solid reliable firearm.

[Ignition Override]

I'm only curious about which country you live in.

I've watched Palomar Tactical's Youtube channel from Slovenia and they use a VZ-58, HK-91 etc on their tactical range. They also might own a FAL.

Even Germany reportedly now allows people to own an AKM etc at a gun club.
Estonians can own a VZ-58 in 7.62x39 also, as is the case with Czechs, Slovaks etc.

Do your laws require a .223 for your First semi-auto rifle, or is this the largest chambering you can own in semi-auto?

[necroram]

Replying to all.

I live in Armenia and yes the markups are crazy. Theres no restriction or mil/civ distinction on calibers as far as Im aware (have re-read the relevant articles in the law just now, though there might be some government directives or whatnot that regulate such details), so theres little chance CZ had to alter their barrels to meet our specs.

Barrel restrictions are min 250mm for rifled and 400mm for smoothbore and overall min allowed length is 600mm. No handguns or anything short allowed here except for LE/officers. This 11" Bren is just perfect in terms of balance and range, and since 8" would already be illegal (and suppressors are illegal as well), theres no point going shorter than that, especially when its a naked barrel and Im not gonna install extended handguards not to mess up the balance. It also comes with the rifle stock so its effectively an SBR (which we dont have to register in any way like in the US).

Im most likely gonna swap the front rails with Pics, and the trigger, bolt release and the selector for the HB Industries parts.

While we're at it, what optics would you guys recommend?
I can order from abroad including the US too, Im eyeing either the Holosun 512 or AEMS series or the EoTech EXPS3, Ill be doing indoors range shooting within 50m like 95% of the time.

[P-990]

First off, welcome!

Secondly, of the options you've listed, I think the CZ is the most appealing, especially since you can have it in the short version without extra paperwork. (Though looking at your pricing, it might still be cheaper for us to get one here in the US and the tax stamp it to make it an SBR.) I suspect your store clerk was misinformed on the CZ not being able to use 5.56mm. There's nothing a "heavier barrel" gives you to handle 5.56mm, and as far as I know C.I.P. doesn't recognize a difference between the .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO.

As for optics, what would an Aimpoint cost you? Is it an option? One of the Aimpoint Micros would be my recommendation for a no drama, plug-and-play red dot optic, especially with 50m being the most likely use case. Holosun is generally OK too, if the price point is enough lower. I just have a bad case of "I don't trust it" when stepping away from Aimpoint, Trijicon and EOTech for red dot sights.

[necroram]

Thanks!

The upside vs the tax stamp is theres no months of wait, though it did take our stores a whole 6 years to finally get the Brens to our market, and generally, modern western guns didnt have much representation in our market until fairly recently, now theres at least several stores offering some kind of ARs.

As for the caliber, isnt the 5.56 chamber a tad larger than .223 which results in a pressure build-up? And arent most sporting ammo bullets heavier than the mil spec bullets as far as I was told? Which would result in a higher barrel pressure and negate the load difference. Sorry for my messy thoughts, just musing about all the conflicting info Ive been getting.

For optics, just saw the new Holosun Ronin AEMS Max which definitely looks like the best option in terms of size, weight, price and it being an absolute co-witness and coming with a quick detach mount, definitely looks like an improvement over the og AEMS. I dont want an EoTech because of the battery drain despite the coolz factor, and Aimpoint/Trijicon are too small and prohibitively expensive for my use-cases. Other options Id consider are the HE512 and Sig Romeo 8T, though the AEMS has them beat in size and weight which are the most important parameters for me.

As for price, I can order from the US Amazon and other sites through a freight forwarder, but Ive also heard our customs regulations might get in the way with a huge tax for any optic thats attachable to a gun, so Im not sure yet Ill have to do some digging to find out all the details.

[wachtelhund1]

Guns in most European countries cost way more than they do in the States. I've live in Italy and Germany and bought guns in both countries. The cost is almost 3 to 4 times what we pay in the States. Hunting and shooting sports are also 3 to 4 times more expensive. Controls on guns, reloading and powder, etc. are very strick.

[rickyrick]

I’ve read a lot about guns book, magazines, online, forums or wherever… never heard of one single instance where a gun was damaged due to using 5.56 in a .223.
Anyway, I’d avoid anything that recommends .223 only and forbids use of 5.56 even though I mostly shoot .223 in my guns that use 5.56/.223

[georgehwbush]

yeah rickyrick the smoke on that warning seems to be a "if the round jams into the lands it may go over presure" and some milspec loads may be a touch long for the 223 chamber (throat lead area specifically)

but mos people don't fire tracer rounds anyway.

anyway i tend to agree, if it says "don't do this" there is probably a reason.

[jetinteriorguy]

Looking on the CZ website, in the verbal description they refer to the chambering as .223, but in the spec. sheet they list it as 5.56x45. I’d go by the spec sheet myself since it being chambered in .223 seems unlikely these days.

[armoredman]

It's 5.56mm, should do just fine with any commercial ammo made today.

[P-990]

Originally Posted by necroram

Thanks!

The upside vs the tax stamp is theres no months of wait, though it did take our stores a whole 6 years to finally get the Brens to our market, and generally, modern western guns didnt have much representation in our market until fairly recently, now theres at least several stores offering some kind of ARs.

As for the caliber, isnt the 5.56 chamber a tad larger than .223 which results in a pressure build-up? And arent most sporting ammo bullets heavier than the mil spec bullets as far as I was told? Which would result in a higher barrel pressure and negate the load difference. Sorry for my messy thoughts, just musing about all the conflicting info Ive been getting.

For optics, just saw the new Holosun Ronin AEMS Max which definitely looks like the best option in terms of size, weight, price and it being an absolute co-witness and coming with a quick detach mount, definitely looks like an improvement over the og AEMS. I dont want an EoTech because of the battery drain despite the coolz factor, and Aimpoint/Trijicon are too small and prohibitively expensive for my use-cases. Other options Id consider are the HE512 and Sig Romeo 8T, though the AEMS has them beat in size and weight which are the most important parameters for me.

As for price, I can order from the US Amazon and other sites through a freight forwarder, but Ive also heard our customs regulations might get in the way with a huge tax for any optic thats attachable to a gun, so Im not sure yet Ill have to do some digging to find out all the details.

Going to try to tackle the bullet weight, pressure difference thing a little here.

The pressure limit for a cartridge is fixed at a maximum spec by either SAAMI (in the US) or the C.I.P (European organization). As an example, it is a flat "55,000 PSI maximum allowable chamber pressure" and has no relation to bullet weight. This is part of why heavier bullets will have slower muzzle velocities than lighter bullets in the same cartridge. You have to respect the upper pressure limit, and heavier bullets do generate more pressure, so maximum powder charges are lower to stay in the same pressure limit. (There are also limits of case capacity and chamber length, but we'll ignore that for now.)

Now yes, a 5.56 NATO chamber will generally have a larger throat and longer leade than a .223 Remington chamber. Military-spec ammo can have bullets with blunter profiles loaded to longer lengths and still fit in the mil-spec chamber, but the same ammo can certainly get jammed into the rifling of a tighter .223 Remington chamber. And bullets jammed into rifling is where your real over-pressure danger comes when shooting rifles. As a rule, you can use .223 Remington ammo in a 5.56 NATO chamber, and should only use .223 Remington in a .223 Rem chambered rifle.

As for bullet weights of commercial vs military loadings, you normally only encounter 55 grain and 62 grain bullets in 5.56 NATO ammo. (There are other options out there but you have to put some effort into finding them.) .223 Remington commercial ammo can be loaded anywhere from a 45 grain bullet to 80 grain bullets, but again you'll mostly find ammunition loaded with 55-64 grain bullets on the shelf.

Since the CZ Bren 2 is a semi-automatic "clone" of a military specified rifle, it would be very surprising if CZ took the time to cut the barrels with different chambers.

[necroram]

Originally Posted by P-990

Going to try to tackle the bullet weight, pressure difference thing a little here.

The pressure limit for a cartridge is fixed at a maximum spec by either SAAMI (in the US) or the C.I.P (European organization). As an example, it is a flat "55,000 PSI maximum allowable chamber pressure" and has no relation to bullet weight. This is part of why heavier bullets will have slower muzzle velocities than lighter bullets in the same cartridge. You have to respect the upper pressure limit, and heavier bullets do generate more pressure, so maximum powder charges are lower to stay in the same pressure limit. (There are also limits of case capacity and chamber length, but we'll ignore that for now.)

Now yes, a 5.56 NATO chamber will generally have a larger throat and longer leade than a .223 Remington chamber. Military-spec ammo can have bullets with blunter profiles loaded to longer lengths and still fit in the mil-spec chamber, but the same ammo can certainly get jammed into the rifling of a tighter .223 Remington chamber. And bullets jammed into rifling is where your real over-pressure danger comes when shooting rifles. As a rule, you can use .223 Remington ammo in a 5.56 NATO chamber, and should only use .223 Remington in a .223 Rem chambered rifle.

As for bullet weights of commercial vs military loadings, you normally only encounter 55 grain and 62 grain bullets in 5.56 NATO ammo. (There are other options out there but you have to put some effort into finding them.) .223 Remington commercial ammo can be loaded anywhere from a 45 grain bullet to 80 grain bullets, but again you'll mostly find ammunition loaded with 55-64 grain bullets on the shelf.

Since the CZ Bren 2 is a semi-automatic "clone" of a military specified rifle, it would be very surprising if CZ took the time to cut the barrels with different chambers.

Thanks for the excellent clarification, mate.

This has been the most helpful forum Ive found so far.

[Spats McGee]

I have no experience with any of the models you listed, so I'll just say: Welcome to TFL!

[necroram]

Originally Posted by Spats McGee

I have no experience with any of the models you listed, so I'll just say: Welcome to TFL!

Thanks, been a pleasure so far.

[zaitcev]

I cannot help but admire Diamondback's resilience. Only 10 years ago they were known as suppliers of the worst KelTec clones on this side of IO. When they entered AR market, nobody agreed to their guns except at bargain basement prices. And now they ask $2k for one of them.

P.S. I see what is happening here. Most American manufacturers aren't bothering to obtain export licenses, but apparently Diamondback did, and now they are selling at a vastly inflated price, because more reputable manufacturers are too lazy (or risk averse).

The OP didn't mention what country he's in, but I know that Ruger sell in places like France, Sweden, and Canada. I'd take a look at their offerings before considering DB, if available.

[necroram]

Originally Posted by zaitcev

I cannot help but admire Diamondback's resilience. Only 10 years ago they were known as suppliers of the worst KelTec clones on this side of IO. When they entered AR market, nobody agreed to their guns except at bargain basement prices. And now they ask $2k for one of them.

P.S. I see what is happening here. Most American manufacturers aren't bothering to obtain export licenses, but apparently Diamondback did, and now they are selling at a vastly inflated price, because more reputable manufacturers are too lazy (or risk averse).

The OP didn't mention what country he's in, but I know that Ruger sell in places like France, Sweden, and Canada. I'd take a look at their offerings before considering DB, if available.

Im from Armenia. Im not sure if the price is manufacturer-specified or just a crazy mark up because of taxes and the store's self-will because theres no competition, the only other store that imports ARs is the one with the ADCs.

[necroram]

While we're here, and not to create another Bren-specific thread

1) would you recommend changing the factory handguard to the HBI 8"? I do also want to install the Pic rail kit from Preston Precision, but they wont fit neatly if at all on the HBI guard.

2) Please recommend some affordable but quality lights and visible-spectrum lasers, canted if possible. Id like to get both under 500$ total. Of course theres the BE Meyers MAWL, but its crazy expensive, is it ok getting the knock offs? Its not a priority at all though, and I will much rather spend the money on upgrading the trigger and the controls, so something cheap but sturdy would be ok for me.

3) Finally, the optics. Since Ill be shooting indoors at 50 meters most of the time, I hardly need magnification. After some research, Ive arrived at the EOTech EXPS3 vs Holosun AEMS Max vs Aimpoint Pro. I do like the huge window on the AEMS Max vs the smaller AP Pro and dont have a night vision so not much need in the EOTech, plus the benefit of absolute co-witness, though the other 2 options are certainly compelling with their quality and reliability over Holosun. What should I pick, which one would allow me the quickest target acquisition and switching?

[rickyrick]

I own and really like this optic,

Not sure if it would be available to you where you live, been very impressed with it. It rides on the AR I keep by my bedside.

https://vortexoptics.com/vortex-amg-...hic-sight.html

It’s much cheaper than the MSRP

[armoredman]

I use the SIG Romeo5 on my BREN 2, love it.