pure lead round nose?

1911greg · September 14, 2002, 02:39 PM

When I first started reloading, Only about 2 years ago I didn't have any bullets to reload with so I got some pure lead plates and melted them down and cast some bullets well they were pretty nasty to shoot fouled the bore because they were soooo soft so now I was thinking what if you got about 6.0 grains of unique and cast pure lead 230gr round nose would it expand? I think I am going to try it on some water jugs.

TGS · September 14, 2002, 03:07 PM

Greg,
Usually pure lead is only used for minnie balls and Black Powder shooting reason being just as you experienced heavy leading.
Now if you take that pure lead and make an alloy you'll have much better results. Even better stop by the tire shop and talk them out of their wheel weights. Tell them scrap is down and they should just give them to you

After you mold them you can harden them in your kitchen oven (450 for 45 minutes then into cold water).
Also using gas checks (if your are using a gas check mold) will greatly reduce leading at velocity over 1000fps.
There are some really good books on casting (Lyman) and they are worth getting if you are going to cast your own. Also www.loadyourown.com is full of info. and also the Cast Bullet Association is great. Bullet pure soft lead doesnt go to well as your experiencing
Tom

1911greg · September 14, 2002, 03:43 PM

I actually did talk the tire shop out of a 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights, I was just wondering if a pure lead bullet (although a pain in the ass to clean your barrel) would be a good personal defense round because it expands?

labgrade · September 14, 2002, 08:37 PM

230 grs makes me think .45ACP, no?

I'd load pure lead to about 800 fps or so & err on the light side of that. Do use a good lube & you should be OK far as leading. (Insert my obligatory note about 10Ks of .38 HBWC rounds with no leading. They're loaded at around 750 or so.)

A .45 doesn't have to expand - it just needs to penetrate, but at the non-leading velocities, I'd pass on using these for anything but the probable excellent plinking loads you can develop.

Try the wheel weights at whatever speed the .45 will push them & you'd have a varmint load there.

(edited to slap head & rewrite to"wheel weights" ... duh - dyslexia attack)

444 · September 14, 2002, 08:50 PM

If I understand what you are getting at, you are not talking about trying to learn how to cast bullets for general use, you are thinking about making a bullet for self defense or hunting that will expand in firearms that traditionally have a hard time getting expansion because of low muzzle velocity. If that is what you are talking about, then yes, I have thought about it also. I have always wondered why this subject never comes up. Sure, if you go out and plink with pure lead bullets you are going to get excessive barrel leading; we are not talking about plinking; we are talking about firing a couple shots either in self defense or for hunting. I have thought about this in a snub nosed .38 Special revolver myself. You are dealing with a muzzle velocity less than 800 fps. Sometimes as low as 600 fps. Yet I would think that a pure lead bullet would expand at those velocities, maybe not, I never tried it. I do have a box of Winchester .38 Special hollow points that were recently written about in a magazine as being designed for expansion in the 2" barrel. I can dent one with my fingernail so they are pretty close to pure lead, if not pure lead. These are not jacketed at all, so it is basically what I was thinking about.
True enought about the .45 ACP putting a big hole in things without expansion, but if you can get expansion also, then so much the better. I personally would think that something like this would be better suited to a revolver as I would think a very soft bullet would get smashed in the nose while in the mag during recoil and possibly cause feeding problems. They might also get deformed in feeding.

1911greg · September 14, 2002, 09:43 PM

"If I understand what you are getting at, you are not talking about trying to learn how to cast bullets for general use, you are thinking about making a bullet for self defense or hunting that will expand in firearms that traditionally have a hard time getting expansion because of low muzzle velocity"
Quote by 444

this is exactly what I am trying to accomplice the .45 seems to have a hard time expanding in short 3" guns.

labgrade · September 14, 2002, 10:16 PM

1911greg,

I think you're caught up in a Catch 22. Pure lead can't be pushed fast enough to expand without leading & at the lower velocity end, it won't expand.

As mentioned, I'd use the pure lead as plinking bullets at low velocity & shoot 'em up. Work up another load with a better suitable material, or JHP, etc. for defense.

Or, even better yet, since you got that wheel weight, allow it together & give that whirl. It'll certaily harden up your pure. I'd try a 1/3 pure to 2/3 WW mix by weight for starters - see what you get.

Too, a 1:9 of 50/50 bar solder dropped into the mix can bring you up towards the Lyman #2 alloy - good enough lead that will shoot as fast as your .45 can make 'em go.

444 · September 15, 2002, 05:50 AM

labgrade; I think you are missing something here. He doesn't care about leading. He is talking about a self defense/hunting bullet. He is talking about only firing a couple of them total; if it saved his life, who cares if the barrel is leaded ? If he fires two of them at a deer, how much leading could occur ? He is talking about firing a pure lead bullet using a max load to get expansion, leading is not a factor.
If he fires a pure lead bullet at max velocity, will leading occur ? Yes, certainly, he just doesn't care about it.

Johnny Guest · September 15, 2002, 09:34 AM

- - -as to your intended USE of these bullets. Please tell us what kind of handgun you want to feed these loads.

I was influenced by your screen name and assumed you contemplate using these loads in an autopistol. I realize though, that there are a LOT of revolvers which use .45 bullets--and the 230 gr is NOT only used in .45 ACP--I shoot a lot of 'em in .45 Colt myownself.

But then, you mention the concept of expansion from a three-inch barrel. Pretty short for an auto, but I think there are a couple fo those on the market.

Figuring you are using an auto--
I seriously doubt you'll drive a 230 RNL fast enough to get reliable expansion. Some deformation, perhaps. I don't figure this is a great problem. A .452" diameter bullet at - - what? 650 fps? - - can still be pretty effective. BUT, the softer the bullet, the more possibility of problems in feeding. The geometry of the Colt/Browning .45 pistols was figured with a hard-jacketed bullet in mind. And most of us using lead handloads want HARD-cast bullets to more closely mimic jacketed bullets. Even with mirror-polished feed ramps, I've had lead smears build up up when using too-soft bullets. The more lead deposit on the ramp and top inside of the chamber, the more drag to impede proper feeding.

Another factor - - -the shorter a .45 autopistol is made, the more likely are problems. The timing of the mechanism becomes more crucial than with the standard five-inch barrel. Given these factors, I would worry a lot about use of dead-soft lead 230 RN bullets in a defensive role. Better to rely on a factory hardball, which at least would give you the best chance of reliable function. I prefer a mundane factory load which always works to an "iffy" custom load.

If your pistol will feed "modern" JHP loads, they probably won't expand from a three-inch barrel, but the HP design equates to a wide, flat meplat when it hits tissue. A long nosed SWC design, like the(hard cast) H&G #68 bullet or the jacketed Hornady CT, would also be good for reliable function and pretty fair terminal results.

If I am wrong in my assumption and you are actually using a three-inch REVOLVER, then the funciton remarks don't apply. The wheel guns will use anything that'll fit into the chambers, and you can use your cast bullets, soft or hard, without reliability worries. Comments about driving a 230 fast enough to expand still apply, though. I thiink I'd be happy with using my home-cast 230 RNL for practice. As I'd be giving up a lot of velocity to the short barrel, I would prefer a different bullet for defensive use.

One man's opinion - - - -

Best,
Johnny

Steve Smith · September 15, 2002, 10:40 AM

Wheel weights.

September 14, 2002, 02:39 PM	#1
1911greg Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2002 Posts: 196	pure lead round nose? When I first started reloading, Only about 2 years ago I didn't have any bullets to reload with so I got some pure lead plates and melted them down and cast some bullets well they were pretty nasty to shoot fouled the bore because they were soooo soft so now I was thinking what if you got about 6.0 grains of unique and cast pure lead 230gr round nose would it expand? I think I am going to try it on some water jugs.

September 14, 2002, 08:37 PM	#4
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	230 grs makes me think .45ACP, no? I'd load pure lead to about 800 fps or so & err on the light side of that. Do use a good lube & you should be OK far as leading. (Insert my obligatory note about 10Ks of .38 HBWC rounds with no leading. They're loaded at around 750 or so.) A .45 doesn't have to expand - it just needs to penetrate, but at the non-leading velocities, I'd pass on using these for anything but the probable excellent plinking loads you can develop. Try the wheel weights at whatever speed the .45 will push them & you'd have a varmint load there. (edited to slap head & rewrite to"wheel weights" ... duh - dyslexia attack) Last edited by labgrade; September 14, 2002 at 09:19 PM.

September 14, 2002, 08:50 PM	#5
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	If I understand what you are getting at, you are not talking about trying to learn how to cast bullets for general use, you are thinking about making a bullet for self defense or hunting that will expand in firearms that traditionally have a hard time getting expansion because of low muzzle velocity. If that is what you are talking about, then yes, I have thought about it also. I have always wondered why this subject never comes up. Sure, if you go out and plink with pure lead bullets you are going to get excessive barrel leading; we are not talking about plinking; we are talking about firing a couple shots either in self defense or for hunting. I have thought about this in a snub nosed .38 Special revolver myself. You are dealing with a muzzle velocity less than 800 fps. Sometimes as low as 600 fps. Yet I would think that a pure lead bullet would expand at those velocities, maybe not, I never tried it. I do have a box of Winchester .38 Special hollow points that were recently written about in a magazine as being designed for expansion in the 2" barrel. I can dent one with my fingernail so they are pretty close to pure lead, if not pure lead. These are not jacketed at all, so it is basically what I was thinking about. True enought about the .45 ACP putting a big hole in things without expansion, but if you can get expansion also, then so much the better. I personally would think that something like this would be better suited to a revolver as I would think a very soft bullet would get smashed in the nose while in the mag during recoil and possibly cause feeding problems. They might also get deformed in feeding. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

September 15, 2002, 09:34 AM	#9
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	1911 greg, I'm unclear - - - - - -as to your intended USE of these bullets. Please tell us what kind of handgun you want to feed these loads. I was influenced by your screen name and assumed you contemplate using these loads in an autopistol. I realize though, that there are a LOT of revolvers which use .45 bullets--and the 230 gr is NOT only used in .45 ACP--I shoot a lot of 'em in .45 Colt myownself. But then, you mention the concept of expansion from a three-inch barrel. Pretty short for an auto, but I think there are a couple fo those on the market. Figuring you are using an auto-- I seriously doubt you'll drive a 230 RNL fast enough to get reliable expansion. Some deformation, perhaps. I don't figure this is a great problem. A .452" diameter bullet at - - what? 650 fps? - - can still be pretty effective. BUT, the softer the bullet, the more possibility of problems in feeding. The geometry of the Colt/Browning .45 pistols was figured with a hard-jacketed bullet in mind. And most of us using lead handloads want HARD-cast bullets to more closely mimic jacketed bullets. Even with mirror-polished feed ramps, I've had lead smears build up up when using too-soft bullets. The more lead deposit on the ramp and top inside of the chamber, the more drag to impede proper feeding. Another factor - - -the shorter a .45 autopistol is made, the more likely are problems. The timing of the mechanism becomes more crucial than with the standard five-inch barrel. Given these factors, I would worry a lot about use of dead-soft lead 230 RN bullets in a defensive role. Better to rely on a factory hardball, which at least would give you the best chance of reliable function. I prefer a mundane factory load which always works to an "iffy" custom load. If your pistol will feed "modern" JHP loads, they probably won't expand from a three-inch barrel, but the HP design equates to a wide, flat meplat when it hits tissue. A long nosed SWC design, like the(hard cast) H&G #68 bullet or the jacketed Hornady CT, would also be good for reliable function and pretty fair terminal results. If I am wrong in my assumption and you are actually using a three-inch REVOLVER, then the funciton remarks don't apply. The wheel guns will use anything that'll fit into the chambers, and you can use your cast bullets, soft or hard, without reliability worries. Comments about driving a 230 fast enough to expand still apply, though. I thiink I'd be happy with using my home-cast 230 RNL for practice. As I'd be giving up a lot of velocity to the short barrel, I would prefer a different bullet for defensive use. One man's opinion - - - - Best, Johnny

September 15, 2002, 10:40 AM	#10
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Wheel weights. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

September 14, 2002, 03:07 PM	#2
TGS Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1999 Location: Woodbury TN Posts: 138	Pure Lead...No Good! Greg, Usually pure lead is only used for minnie balls and Black Powder shooting reason being just as you experienced heavy leading. Now if you take that pure lead and make an alloy you'll have much better results. Even better stop by the tire shop and talk them out of their wheel weights. Tell them scrap is down and they should just give them to you After you mold them you can harden them in your kitchen oven (450 for 45 minutes then into cold water). Also using gas checks (if your are using a gas check mold) will greatly reduce leading at velocity over 1000fps. There are some really good books on casting (Lyman) and they are worth getting if you are going to cast your own. Also www.loadyourown.com is full of info. and also the Cast Bullet Association is great. Bullet pure soft lead doesnt go to well as your experiencing Tom

September 14, 2002, 03:43 PM	#3
1911greg Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2002 Posts: 196	I actually did talk the tire shop out of a 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights, I was just wondering if a pure lead bullet (although a pain in the ass to clean your barrel) would be a good personal defense round because it expands?

September 14, 2002, 09:43 PM	#6
1911greg Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2002 Posts: 196	"If I understand what you are getting at, you are not talking about trying to learn how to cast bullets for general use, you are thinking about making a bullet for self defense or hunting that will expand in firearms that traditionally have a hard time getting expansion because of low muzzle velocity" Quote by 444 this is exactly what I am trying to accomplice the .45 seems to have a hard time expanding in short 3" guns.

September 14, 2002, 10:16 PM	#7
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	1911greg, I think you're caught up in a Catch 22. Pure lead can't be pushed fast enough to expand without leading & at the lower velocity end, it won't expand. As mentioned, I'd use the pure lead as plinking bullets at low velocity & shoot 'em up. Work up another load with a better suitable material, or JHP, etc. for defense. Or, even better yet, since you got that wheel weight, allow it together & give that whirl. It'll certaily harden up your pure. I'd try a 1/3 pure to 2/3 WW mix by weight for starters - see what you get. Too, a 1:9 of 50/50 bar solder dropped into the mix can bring you up towards the Lyman #2 alloy - good enough lead that will shoot as fast as your .45 can make 'em go.

September 15, 2002, 05:50 AM	#8
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	labgrade; I think you are missing something here. He doesn't care about leading. He is talking about a self defense/hunting bullet. He is talking about only firing a couple of them total; if it saved his life, who cares if the barrel is leaded ? If he fires two of them at a deer, how much leading could occur ? He is talking about firing a pure lead bullet using a max load to get expansion, leading is not a factor. If he fires a pure lead bullet at max velocity, will leading occur ? Yes, certainly, he just doesn't care about it.