full house .38 special loads

[stephen b]

I'm about to start loading for my 40+ year old Colt Cobra. I want to use 158 grain hollow points for the purpose of personal protection. I'm told that this pistol will not do well with a steady diet +P or +P+ loads. I'm wondering if anyone could advise me on what a healthy max load for this pistol might be?
Thanks.

stephen b

[stans]

I would recommend you consult some reloading manuals. Always check more than one manual, but if you can get only one manual, then go with the Lyman's manual. Don't start with maximum loads, or you may end up with a handful of 40 year old Colt parts.

[birdman]

If it were my Colt I'd shoot nothing hotter than 4.0 gr. of 231 in it with the 158's. For defense I'd use the 110 gr. Federal defense JHP's. I wouldn't want to over stress a fine old .38. regards, birdman

[Johnny Guest]

and am proud owner of a couple of them. But they are not robust enough for a steady diet of +P level loads. My old M37 Airweight Chief has been to the shop twice now for end shake developed by my use of 158 LSWCs with a healthy load of Unique. It was a touch under max for a K-frame all steel gun.

I have backed off to light loads for general use, plinking and close range targets. I look forward to many years of service for my M37 and a Colt Agent. I keep both loaded with Remington 158 LSWCHP +P. The heavy loads will not blow up the light revolvers, but it puts unnecessary strain on the mechanism.

I don't believe it is possible to do better for a defense load than the Rem or Win factory 158 LSWCHP +P. They are reasonably priced. I strongly suggest you buy a box of either, fire a few to see where your Cobra prints with them, and then practice with standard velocity .38 Spl loads. It is difficult to tell the difference in point of impact between these and the +P 158 loads up to 15--20 yards. AND--The +P are not fun to shoot in a 12 to 16 oz revolver. Yes, I know the theory of practice with your "duty load" or equivalent. I truly think that you are far better off working on sight picture and trigger squeeze with a load that is not painful. Same with practice for point shooting. Any proficiency demands practice, and it is easier with a milder load.

All the above is quite aside from the legal considerations of handload use for defense, and quality control issues.

stephen b, I hope the above information motivates you to at least seek other input. And, if you are really invested in steady practice with full +P loads, please sell your old Cobra to me or someone else who likes 'em, and use the proceeds to purchase a Detective Special--the same gun, but all steel.

Best regards,
Johnny

[stephen b]

Thanks everyone,
Very informative info. I would much sooner laod down for my father's vintage Corba than ever sell it. Sorry Jonnny.
I can live with standard .38 cal loads for practice and a legal box of factory +P's for ready protection.
Much obliged.

stephen b

[john kilgore]

I would not shoot over the 4.0 load with Win231 that was given you. (assuming a 158gr lead bullet) In fact, I would not shoot nearly that hot.
3.4gr of Win.231 will give you close to 700fps from your short barrel and will be much easier on you and the gun. It most probably will shoot to point of aim or just above it. Also, 3.0-3.1 grs. of Bullseye will give you nearly identical velocity. This is what most competition shooters (paper games) use for paper punching. They will go 50-100 thousand rounds in a K or L frame S&W without them having to visit a gunsmith to have the yokes stretched or replaced (for excessive end shake-"looseness").
The Colts are more fragile than the S&W's because of the pawl and cylinder lock design. Enjoy your Colt and preserve your collectors piece (Colt doesn't make them anymore) by loading light. These loads will give you enough kick and velocity to let you know your not shooting a rim-fire, but won't break the bank or the gun. For the fixed sights to look where it hits, you should use a 158gr lead bullet because the guns were designed to shoot the standard velocity 158gr RN or SWC bullets at 755fps (cataloged velocities from 4" vented test barrels or about 650 fps from 2"bbl.)Any load with a lighter bullet, and/or higher velocity will shoot to a lower point of inpact, and anything heavier/slower will shoot to a higher point of impact.
Good luck !!

[MADISON]

There are quite a number of ALLOY FRAME guns out there. The S&W model 36 [Chief's Special] and the Colt Cobra are designed to be carried and not shot with HEAVY LOADS. Carry a full house loading but only shoot them for familization.

[Johnny Guest]

There are quite a number of ALLOY FRAME guns out there. The S&W model 36 [Chief's Special] and the Colt Cobra are designed to be carried and not shot with HEAVY LOADS. Carry a full house loading but only shoot them for familization.

Agreed, except for the model number---The M36 is the all steel Chief's Special, and holds up surprisingly well with warmish loads. Essentially the same revolver, WITH ALLOY FRAME is the Model 37 Airweight Chiefs.

Best,
Johnny

[C.R.Sam]

Johnny be quick

Sam

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, stephen b. Like others here, I, too, am a fan of the alloy J-frames and am finally lucky enough to have a like-new '60s vintage Colt Agent. A couple of the J-frames ARE rated for use with +P, but I either practice with Winchester or Remington 130 gr FMJ or a handload using 3.0 gr Bullseye under a cast 158 bullet or plated 125 gr FP. Easy on the guns and much more pleasant to practice with.

IF you can find them, Federal's std. pressure 125 gr Nyclad HP is not a bad choice for protection. It averages 886 ft/sec out of one of my J-frames. Still, I do think that the +P 158 gr LSWCHP to be better. I shoot a few of those on rare occassion and carry them in the S&Ws.

As Mr. Guest noted, while there is much very right with practice using the same or equivalent load you'd be using in a fight, in this instance, I'd sure go with something a bit lighter.

Best.

[Waitone]

Seriously reconsider reloading your defensive ammo.

Its really hard to lawyer-proof reloaded defensive ammo.

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. While quite popular as a concealed carry gun or BUG, I suspect strongly that the J-frame toters do not practice with them as much as they'd like........or should.

The reasons are likely felt recoil and the fact that these little revolvers are amongst the most difficult to master in terms of accuracy. (There's also a cadre of users who feel that the range they'd use the thing at makes accuracy concerns unnecessary. Perhaps, but I prefer to be able to hit with any handgun carried for personal protection.)

Being able to accurately shoot the little J-frames, particularly the lightweight versions, requires more than just an ocassional cylinder-full downrange. It's my belief and experience that one has got to work at getting decent with these easy-to-carry, but-tough-to-shoot "revolving derringers," but factory .38 Special loads appropriate for such practice can often cost more than factory 9mm.

Handloaders have a myriad of options in loading for the little thirty-eights. I chose to have a light load that has some recoil (Anything in an airweight has SOME recoil!, but that is easy on the hand and gun. Sight picture and trigger control are bettered learned and re-enforced with something that doesn't bruise the hand, or in my case, base of the strong-hand thumb.

Anyway, I tried 3.0 gr of Bullseye in mixed cases I had about with Winchester Small Pistol Primers. The powder charge remained constant while only the bullets were changed.

Bullets:

Rainier 125 gr PFP
Rucker 158 gr CSWC (Plain and moly-coated)
Kead 158 gr CRN

Here are the assembled handloads.



All cases had been fired at least once and a moderate crimp applied. (Note: Rainier warns against heavy crimps that can damage the plated "jacket.")

I didn't chronograph anything, but suspect that the bullets are in the 750 to 800 ft/sec range.

After shooting several cylindersfull of the test loads, I fired a group with two of my favorite factory carry loads, Federal's 125 gr std. pressure Nyclad HP and Remington's +P 158 gr LSWCHP for comparision in terms of felt recoil and POA vs POI.



Revolver Used: The revolver was an S&W Model 642 "Airweight," which uses the aluminum alloy frame. Unlike some of the even lighter revolvers now offered by S&W, the airweights do not have the prohibition against using lead or non-jacketed bullets due to bullets slipping their crimps and jamming the revolver.



This one is rated for use with +P ammunition and is the only J-frame I own that is, the rest being older.

Distance: With a recent "Range Report" done on a most similar revolver, I didn't feel it necessary to do a full-blown range report today. The revolvers performed about the same so far as I could tell, but I will mention a noted difference (besides the cylinder latches) later. All shooting was done slow-fire @ 10 yards, standing and with a 2-hand hold. Groups consist of 5 shots each.



For me, this particular revolver tends to hit just a bit to the right. This will hold true for all loads tried (today) except one.

Here are the factory loads' groups, also at 10 yards.



The one load fired today that was most well centered was the Remington +P LSWCHP. It's also the "softest," being the only pure lead bullet fired. The rest were either hard cast, plated, or nylon-coated.

As mentioned earlier, I suspect that the handloads are absolutely no higher than 800 ft/sec with the heavier bullets and probably at or just above 800 ft/sec with the 125 gr plated bullet. The Nyclad chronographs an average of 886 ft/sec from my Model 042. Standard pressure 158 gr lead .38 Special loads quote velocities of 850 ft/sec, but this is from longer than snub bbls. The +P Remington load, if I remember correctly, should be at about 800 ft/sec from a J-frame.

Felt Recoil & Observations: Frankly, anything out of an airweight has recoil, but I do think that the 125 gr PFP is too light with this powder charge as it kicks sooooooooo much less than any of the others. Still, for practice, some might find it of use. I'll take one of the 158s for my practice as it more closely mimicks the recoil of the carry load, but does not possess the "sharpness" if that makes sense. These little guns hurt me at the base of the thumb and last week's firing of 50 +P loads caused quite a little skin abrasion there. Today, I fired roughed 150 rounds with no such problems. Firing the factory loads reminded me that they do have a bit more snap, but not so much more as one might expect!

In almost all instances, I think there's merit to practicing with a load quite similar to the carry load, but in the case of the lightweights, perhaps a bit less is more...in terms of benefits.

I did notice that the front sight on the +P-rated Model 642 differs in both appearance and height from my earlier revolvers NOT rated for +P use. Measuring from the top of the bore to the top of the front sight, my Model 042 shows a distance of 0.348" while the Model 642 shows .360". The latter gun's front sight also has kind of a little "mini-post" on top of the traditional, long-sloping ramp. The picture below saves many words. The Model 642 front sight's compared to a Model 638 of earlier manufacture.



I had thought that perhaps a slightly higher front sight had been added for the use of the harder kicking +P rounds as this one's higher than on the 042, but measuring two other gun's sights (not rated for +P) yielded .350"(Model 638) and .360"(Model 442) so that kind of blows that theory.

Best.

[Johnny Guest]

- - -Great write-up, Stephen. Excellent illustrations. Reminds me again that I MUST get a digital camera of my own. and soon. I feel all left out when people go to posting these nifty images. Been meaning to get with Elder Son and shoot a bunch of stock photos of guns, but everyone's out of Round Tuits, and I just can't get one.

Again, very nice response.

Best,
Johnny

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Johnny and thanks.

Best.

PS: Get you a digital camera. I was kind of scared of mine at first with all the buttons and thingys; the instruction book is THICKER than I expected and I cannot use the thing to full potential, but they're not all that hard for basic stuff.