Loading for a 270 BAR

scpaul · August 14, 2016, 01:52 PM

Hi Ya'll, It's been a while.

I've never loaded for a simi-auto before but, i've been loading for quite a while. An good old friend of mine asked me to load some ammo for a 270 BAR that he bought for his girlfriend to use.

I seem to remember that loading for an simi-auto has some additional rules to do it right and avoid some problems that you don't have to worry about with a bolt gun. I think that there is a speed for the powder so that the action will work properly without beating it to death. I don't know which way that action works; gas or recoil. I think that certain types of powder cause a gas system to clog up.

Any advice would help. I've looked at some of the info for the Garand and M-1 but, don't know how much different the load specs would be, plus this is a 270.

He also asked for a round nose bullet for the shock. Where they are going to be hunting has alot of thick cover in the area so he wants something that will give her a DRT even if her shot isn't perfect, just reasonably close. I can't find anyone (major manufacturers) that is still making a round nose in .277.

Any advice and recipes will be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Paul

Clark · August 14, 2016, 03:06 PM

I have built BAR gas regulators from scratch, but it is easier to buy one and re drill it.
They are really just a bolt with a hole drilled through the center.
I only know about the 7mmRM, 300WM, and 338WM hole sizes.

The bigger the hole, the hotter the ammo the rifle is tuned up for.

If your empty cases fly too far, you need a bigger hole or wimpier ammo.
If your rifle jams from incomplete extraction and ejection, you need a smaller hole or hotter ammo.

The regulator hole is a by pass, gas thrown away and not used to cycle the action.

My pic is from this post where I give the hole sizes
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=regulator

603Country · August 14, 2016, 04:21 PM

I used to load for a BAR in 270. I settled on IMR4064 and used (back then) the 130 gr Nosler Solid Base Boattails. Accuracy was real good, with a mid-range powder charge. Recoil wasn't much, since the action softened it and the rifle was rather heavy. The weight was one of the reasons my Dad and I both went to bolt actions, and ease of cleaning was another.

If you want the load I used, I can get it for you tomorrow, though it may not be the best in your rifle.

Also, I never had any problem using regular FL sizing dies, but went to small base dies anyway.

scpaul · August 14, 2016, 04:39 PM

Thanks Clark,

What I need is some loads or how to use the manuals to find loads that develop the right pressure for a 270 cal. BAR. I'm thinking that I should start at the middle powders and maybe go to a slightly faster powder if I have any problems with the function. I shouldn't use really slow powders like "Retumbo, IMR-7828, RL-25 or 33, etc." with a stock rifle should I?

He just bought the BAR and as far as he or I know it should be working fine. The guy that he bought it from had only shot box loads and now many of them. He doesn't know which brand/bullet weight/std or high speed, so I don't have anything to go on.

I'm planning on just building a good reliable load for it. He wants a load that won't rattle her teeth. She's only been hunting a few times, I think with her Dad. I really don't want to get into working with the gas system or at least not yet.

It seems like I've heard sometime in the past that ball and flake powder would clog the gas system faster than stick powder. Do you know if that is true? Are BAR's prone to having the gas system clog. Thinking about WWII, I wouldn't think so, although I realize that there's probably some mods since then.

Any more info, generic or otherwise? Like I said before; I've been loading for a while but, that was mainly for bolt actions and handguns.

Thanks again, Paul

scpaul · August 14, 2016, 04:48 PM

Mr. Country thanks,

I'd like to have that recipe, and since I haven't worked with any simi's, I didn't even think about the possibility of small base dies. Small base dies for a 270 aren't hard to find, are they. I haven't looked yet.

Thanks again y'all, Paul

603Country · August 14, 2016, 07:00 PM

My best load for the BAR in 270 was 46.0 gr of IMR4064, CCI 200 primers, and 130 Nosler SBBT. These days I'd go with CCI BR-2 primers, 130 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, and Norma brass. But, Remington brass always works fine for me.

Going on memory, I used regular FL dies most of the time I had the rifle, but switched to small based dies for whatever reason I can't remember. Make up a dummy round with the standard FL dies and run it through the action to see if it chambers easy. I expect it will.

scpaul · August 14, 2016, 07:12 PM

Thanks Country,

That helps alot.

If anyone has some more I'll take them too. I'd like to have a few to compare at the range. I'm also considering bullets up to around 150gr. I think that I'm going to suggest that she take the center of the shoulder and the extra weight might punch through both shoulders when the 130 gr. won't.

Thanks again, Paul

603Country · August 14, 2016, 07:45 PM

I've killed at least 200 deer with a 270 and Nosler 130 gr bullets. And I killed a hog that, per the rancher who thanked me for shooting it, weighed just shy of 400 pounds. That 130 gr bullet is all you need. I will admit that it didn't pass through the hog, but was under the skin on the far side. No blood trail on him, but he didn't take a step, so the tracking wasn't tough at all. On deer shot through the lungs, which is where I prefer to put the bullet, I got pass through most of the time.

Keep the recoil down and use the 130 gr bullet. That's my suggestion.

Clark · August 14, 2016, 09:24 PM

603, tell me those were 130 gr Nosler ballistic tip bullets.

That type of bullet just stops animals for me ... me aiming at the front 1/3 of the animal.

scpaul · August 14, 2016, 09:33 PM

I don't disagree with you at all. I've built a wildcat (7mm Valkyrie) and shot a doe near the end of our season. I entered at the at the back edge of the left front shoulder and exited at the lower part of the right side of the neck. I was shooting a 7 mm Hornady 139 gr. SST. It was probably still over 3K fps at impact. When I drove up to her (center of our dirt road) it looked funny. Instead of laying out flat like deer usually do, she was in a pile. Her front 1/3 of her folded around and the rest of the body fell on it. The shot was 200 to 250 yards. It was dark by this time, so I really couldn't be exact. That being said, you can tell that I don't have any problems with a 130 gr. bullet. I guess it really depends on how well she can shoot.

Being an auto and it's weight with a reasonable power load, it shouldn't be bad recoil wise anyhow. What's a BAR weigh, about 8 to 8 1/2 lbs. fully loaded and with a pretty nice scope (Steiner).

It would be nice to have a longer range load with a heavier bullet if it shoots very good and I think it should. He might want to use it if she isn't going.

Thanks again, Paul

P.S. Clark, I love Ballistic tips but, I have changed over to C/T Ballistic Silvertips when possible. That's one bad bullet and it shoots in almost everything that I try it in.

I just went back and re-read your message and saw that you did say Silvertips.

603Country · August 14, 2016, 10:08 PM

Yes Clark, they were Nosler Ballistic Tips. I switched to them when I could no longer get the SBBT. I never had any problem with even the first generation of BTs. it's a super accurate bullet and I shoot them in the 220, 223, 260, and 270.

Shoot em in the lungs and they die every time. They seem to run a few more steps when hit with the 260 when compared to the 270, but they don't go far.

T. O'Heir · August 15, 2016, 01:17 PM

"...the right pressure for a 270 cal. BAR..." You won't find that in any loading manual. One doesn't reload for a specific rifle's pressure curve.
However, loading for any SEMI-auto is done the same way. You check case lengths(trim/chamfer and deburr 'as required' only), you must FL resize every time and watch the OAL. Never had any problems using the max OAL given in my manual. As I recall, the .270's is the same Max OAL as a .30-06. Pressures are too.
Then pick a bullet weight and powder and work up the load. Same powders as .30-06 as well.
"...he wants something that..." What he wants is irrelevant. You may need to yell at the guy a bit to get that through his head. snicker. She needs what she'll practice with until she can hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, at 100, every time.
"...What's a BAR weigh..." MK II Safari in .270 weighs 7 pounds 14 ounces empty. Eight is close enough.

steve4102 · August 15, 2016, 01:22 PM

Quote:

"...the right pressure for a 270 cal. BAR..." You won't find that in any loading manual. One doesn't reload for a specific rifle's pressure curve.
However, loading for any SEMI-auto is done the same way. You check case lengths(trim/chamfer and deburr 'as required' only), you must FL resize every time and watch the OAL. Never had any problems using the max OAL given in my manual. As I recall, the .270's is the same Max OAL as a .30-06. Pressures are too.
Then pick a bullet weight and powder and work up the load. Same powders as .30-06 as well.
"...he wants something that..." What he wants is irrelevant. You may need to yell at the guy a bit to get that through his head. snicker. She needs what she'll practice with until she can hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, at 100, every time.
"...What's a BAR weigh..." MK II Safari in .270 weighs 7 pounds 14 ounces empty. Eight is close enough.

Not exactly.

The SAAMI MAP for the 270 is 65K psi and 60K psi for the 30-06.

scpaul · August 16, 2016, 08:50 PM

Thanks, I think that I'm going to start around the middle speed powders in a manual toward the lowest power loads and gradually work up until I get to work pretty good and then later maybe go up just a little more if it's needed.

I ordered a box of 130 gr. Combined technology yesterday to start with. I have some other 270 bullets in my stock but, none of them. I've got some Sierras, Hornadys and Noslers; just not enough to use the same thing until I find the amount/type of powder. Does anyone think that one type of powder, stick, flake, or ball, works better or keeps the gas system cleaner?

Thanks, Paul

Clark · August 16, 2016, 09:42 PM

The peak pressure does not tell all.

In a gas powered AR15, 35 gr Vmax and 90kpsi with Blue Dot will not cycle the action. The pressure x time product is too low.

But with the same rifle 55 gr Vmax and 45kpsi with 4895 will cycle the action just fine.

How can less pressure do better?
1) It is not less pressure when the bullet has passed the gas hole and the gas is being used.
2) The bullet is moving slower so the time is longer.

Higher pressure x time product
[Higher pressure after bullet passes hole] x [ Bullet spends longer in the bore after passing the hole]

What does it all mean?
Someone confused peak chamber pressure with gas hole pressure.

This helps explain why the BAR has different size gas bypass hole sizes for different cartridges.

F. Guffey · August 17, 2016, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Loading for a 270 BAR

When loading for the Browning Automatic Rifle I start with a set of BAR dies. I have 4 sets of BAR dies by RCBS. Bar dies were designed to be used on semi auto loaders.

It seems Garand had a better ideal.

F. Guffey

scpaul · August 17, 2016, 11:15 AM

Guffy, What do you mean by "It seems that Garand had a better ideal."?

Paul

August 14, 2016, 01:52 PM	#1
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Loading for a 270 BAR Hi Ya'll, It's been a while. I've never loaded for a simi-auto before but, i've been loading for quite a while. An good old friend of mine asked me to load some ammo for a 270 BAR that he bought for his girlfriend to use. I seem to remember that loading for an simi-auto has some additional rules to do it right and avoid some problems that you don't have to worry about with a bolt gun. I think that there is a speed for the powder so that the action will work properly without beating it to death. I don't know which way that action works; gas or recoil. I think that certain types of powder cause a gas system to clog up. Any advice would help. I've looked at some of the info for the Garand and M-1 but, don't know how much different the load specs would be, plus this is a 270. He also asked for a round nose bullet for the shock. Where they are going to be hunting has alot of thick cover in the area so he wants something that will give her a DRT even if her shot isn't perfect, just reasonably close. I can't find anyone (major manufacturers) that is still making a round nose in .277. Any advice and recipes will be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!

August 14, 2016, 03:06 PM	#2
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I have built BAR gas regulators from scratch, but it is easier to buy one and re drill it. They are really just a bolt with a hole drilled through the center. I only know about the 7mmRM, 300WM, and 338WM hole sizes. The bigger the hole, the hotter the ammo the rifle is tuned up for. If your empty cases fly too far, you need a bigger hole or wimpier ammo. If your rifle jams from incomplete extraction and ejection, you need a smaller hole or hotter ammo. The regulator hole is a by pass, gas thrown away and not used to cycle the action. My pic is from this post where I give the hole sizes http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...ight=regulator __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

August 14, 2016, 04:39 PM	#4
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Thanks Clark, What I need is some loads or how to use the manuals to find loads that develop the right pressure for a 270 cal. BAR. I'm thinking that I should start at the middle powders and maybe go to a slightly faster powder if I have any problems with the function. I shouldn't use really slow powders like "Retumbo, IMR-7828, RL-25 or 33, etc." with a stock rifle should I? He just bought the BAR and as far as he or I know it should be working fine. The guy that he bought it from had only shot box loads and now many of them. He doesn't know which brand/bullet weight/std or high speed, so I don't have anything to go on. I'm planning on just building a good reliable load for it. He wants a load that won't rattle her teeth. She's only been hunting a few times, I think with her Dad. I really don't want to get into working with the gas system or at least not yet. It seems like I've heard sometime in the past that ball and flake powder would clog the gas system faster than stick powder. Do you know if that is true? Are BAR's prone to having the gas system clog. Thinking about WWII, I wouldn't think so, although I realize that there's probably some mods since then. Any more info, generic or otherwise? Like I said before; I've been loading for a while but, that was mainly for bolt actions and handguns. Thanks again, Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!

August 14, 2016, 04:48 PM	#5
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Mr. Country thanks, I'd like to have that recipe, and since I haven't worked with any simi's, I didn't even think about the possibility of small base dies. Small base dies for a 270 aren't hard to find, are they. I haven't looked yet. Thanks again y'all, Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!

August 14, 2016, 07:12 PM	#7
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Thanks Country, That helps alot. If anyone has some more I'll take them too. I'd like to have a few to compare at the range. I'm also considering bullets up to around 150gr. I think that I'm going to suggest that she take the center of the shoulder and the extra weight might punch through both shoulders when the 130 gr. won't. Thanks again, Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!

August 14, 2016, 04:21 PM	#3
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I used to load for a BAR in 270. I settled on IMR4064 and used (back then) the 130 gr Nosler Solid Base Boattails. Accuracy was real good, with a mid-range powder charge. Recoil wasn't much, since the action softened it and the rifle was rather heavy. The weight was one of the reasons my Dad and I both went to bolt actions, and ease of cleaning was another. If you want the load I used, I can get it for you tomorrow, though it may not be the best in your rifle. Also, I never had any problem using regular FL sizing dies, but went to small base dies anyway.

August 14, 2016, 07:00 PM	#6
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	My best load for the BAR in 270 was 46.0 gr of IMR4064, CCI 200 primers, and 130 Nosler SBBT. These days I'd go with CCI BR-2 primers, 130 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips, and Norma brass. But, Remington brass always works fine for me. Going on memory, I used regular FL dies most of the time I had the rifle, but switched to small based dies for whatever reason I can't remember. Make up a dummy round with the standard FL dies and run it through the action to see if it chambers easy. I expect it will.

August 14, 2016, 07:45 PM	#8
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I've killed at least 200 deer with a 270 and Nosler 130 gr bullets. And I killed a hog that, per the rancher who thanked me for shooting it, weighed just shy of 400 pounds. That 130 gr bullet is all you need. I will admit that it didn't pass through the hog, but was under the skin on the far side. No blood trail on him, but he didn't take a step, so the tracking wasn't tough at all. On deer shot through the lungs, which is where I prefer to put the bullet, I got pass through most of the time. Keep the recoil down and use the 130 gr bullet. That's my suggestion.

August 14, 2016, 09:24 PM	#9
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	603, tell me those were 130 gr Nosler ballistic tip bullets. That type of bullet just stops animals for me ... me aiming at the front 1/3 of the animal. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

August 14, 2016, 09:33 PM	#10
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	I don't disagree with you at all. I've built a wildcat (7mm Valkyrie) and shot a doe near the end of our season. I entered at the at the back edge of the left front shoulder and exited at the lower part of the right side of the neck. I was shooting a 7 mm Hornady 139 gr. SST. It was probably still over 3K fps at impact. When I drove up to her (center of our dirt road) it looked funny. Instead of laying out flat like deer usually do, she was in a pile. Her front 1/3 of her folded around and the rest of the body fell on it. The shot was 200 to 250 yards. It was dark by this time, so I really couldn't be exact. That being said, you can tell that I don't have any problems with a 130 gr. bullet. I guess it really depends on how well she can shoot. Being an auto and it's weight with a reasonable power load, it shouldn't be bad recoil wise anyhow. What's a BAR weigh, about 8 to 8 1/2 lbs. fully loaded and with a pretty nice scope (Steiner). It would be nice to have a longer range load with a heavier bullet if it shoots very good and I think it should. He might want to use it if she isn't going. Thanks again, Paul P.S. Clark, I love Ballistic tips but, I have changed over to C/T Ballistic Silvertips when possible. That's one bad bullet and it shoots in almost everything that I try it in. I just went back and re-read your message and saw that you did say Silvertips. __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!! Last edited by scpaul; August 14, 2016 at 09:40 PM. Reason: just read Clark's responce

August 14, 2016, 10:08 PM	#11
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Yes Clark, they were Nosler Ballistic Tips. I switched to them when I could no longer get the SBBT. I never had any problem with even the first generation of BTs. it's a super accurate bullet and I shoot them in the 220, 223, 260, and 270. Shoot em in the lungs and they die every time. They seem to run a few more steps when hit with the 260 when compared to the 270, but they don't go far.

August 15, 2016, 01:17 PM	#12
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...the right pressure for a 270 cal. BAR..." You won't find that in any loading manual. One doesn't reload for a specific rifle's pressure curve. However, loading for any SEMI-auto is done the same way. You check case lengths(trim/chamfer and deburr 'as required' only), you must FL resize every time and watch the OAL. Never had any problems using the max OAL given in my manual. As I recall, the .270's is the same Max OAL as a .30-06. Pressures are too. Then pick a bullet weight and powder and work up the load. Same powders as .30-06 as well. "...he wants something that..." What he wants is irrelevant. You may need to yell at the guy a bit to get that through his head. snicker. She needs what she'll practice with until she can hit a 9" pie plate, off hand, at 100, every time. "...What's a BAR weigh..." MK II Safari in .270 weighs 7 pounds 14 ounces empty. Eight is close enough. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

August 16, 2016, 08:50 PM	#14
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Thanks, I think that I'm going to start around the middle speed powders in a manual toward the lowest power loads and gradually work up until I get to work pretty good and then later maybe go up just a little more if it's needed. I ordered a box of 130 gr. Combined technology yesterday to start with. I have some other 270 bullets in my stock but, none of them. I've got some Sierras, Hornadys and Noslers; just not enough to use the same thing until I find the amount/type of powder. Does anyone think that one type of powder, stick, flake, or ball, works better or keeps the gas system cleaner? Thanks, Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!

August 16, 2016, 09:42 PM	#15
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	The peak pressure does not tell all. In a gas powered AR15, 35 gr Vmax and 90kpsi with Blue Dot will not cycle the action. The pressure x time product is too low. But with the same rifle 55 gr Vmax and 45kpsi with 4895 will cycle the action just fine. How can less pressure do better? 1) It is not less pressure when the bullet has passed the gas hole and the gas is being used. 2) The bullet is moving slower so the time is longer. Higher pressure x time product [Higher pressure after bullet passes hole] x [ Bullet spends longer in the bore after passing the hole] What does it all mean? Someone confused peak chamber pressure with gas hole pressure. This helps explain why the BAR has different size gas bypass hole sizes for different cartridges. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

August 17, 2016, 11:15 AM	#17
scpaul Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2014 Location: central.....S.C. Posts: 12	Guffy, What do you mean by "It seems that Garand had a better ideal."? Paul __________________ I once thought I understood.....I was WRONG!!!!!!!