Using 44 special loads in 44 magnum case?

[FoghornLeghorn]

I bought two pounds of Vihtavuori N330 today and am looking at load data. It's a pretty versatile powder, but they don't list a load for the 44 mag.

What about taking a max load from the 44 special and using it for the 44 mag?

[ammo.crafter]

Have you given thought to trimming down the mag cases to special dimensions and using the special load data?

[FoghornLeghorn]

No. I'm just curious if one can do as I describe.

I've got other powders for the mag. 2400. Unique. 231. AA#5. 3N37.

And I typically load my 44 mag plinking loads down to special velocities anyway. A favorite load is 240 gr SWC ahead of 7 or 8 grains Unique.

Just curious.

[Unclenick]

Yep. 44 Special and Mag are funny in that, despite the case length differences, their max COLs are about the same (1.615" for Special and 1.610" for Magnum). However, you have to seat the bullets to the same COL listed for 44 Special to have them function the same. This means using a bullet that is meant for the magnum but is the same construction as was listed for the Special, or getting one of the 44 cal bullets that have two crimp grooves, the lower one for Special cases and the upper one for Magnum cases

[black mamba]

Even without the second crimp groove, bullets can be seated deeply in the magnum case and crimped over the ogive on a round nose or over the driving band on a SWC. This gives nearly the same powder space under the bullet as the special case would give when bullets are seated out.

[Unclenick]

It's really seating depth your are trying to match to match pressure.

Seating Depth = case length + bullet length – COL

You can run that using either the maximum or the trim-to lengths for both cases (use the same criterion for both). If your bullet isn't the same length as the one in the load data, you can check some of those lengths here.

[T. O'Heir]

44 Special loads in 44 Magnum case will work just as well as a .38 Special load in a .357 case. No starting at max though.
Vihtavuori N330 isn't a 'magnum' powder.

[TRX]

Shoot your Magnums until the mouths start to split, then trim them down into Specials...

[rclark]

What about taking a max load from the 44 special and using it for the 44 mag?

Of course you can use .44 Special load data for the .44 Magnum. That is the beauty of reloading. You can load very mild to very wild in the .44 Mag case. Same goes with .38 Special and .357.

[44 AMP]

Yep. 44 Special and Mag are funny in that, despite the case length differences, their max COLs are about the same (1.615" for Special and 1.610" for Magnum).

Take a look at this, again. Now, think about it....

A loaded .44 Special is allowed to be 0.005" longer than a loaded .44 Magnum.

Now a .44 Magnum case is 0.125" (1/8") longer than a .44 Special case. This additional length was added to prevent chambering magnum brass in special cylinders. That's the only reason it is there.

Just for the sake of argument, lets say we load BOTH rounds to 1.610"

What's the difference now?? The longer .44 mag brass reaches up further on the bullet. Nothing else. The internal space is the same. If we move that bullet out to the full allowed length of the .44 Special, 1.615" the .44 Special actually has a tiny bit more space in it than the .44 Mag case (with the same bullet).

The difference is measurable, but I don't think it is significant. 0.005" is just a little more than the thickness of an average sheet of paper and less than 2 sheets of paper. It's just not enough to matter in this situation.

The .44 Mag case is bigger (longer) but on the inside, between the base of the bullet and the head of the case, not so much.

The most likely reason there is no listed load for your N330 powder in 44 Magnum is that load data reflects what most people want from a cartridge. People looking at 44 mag data are generally looking for full 44 mag level loads, and so, lighter loads (and powders not well suited to the full 44 Mag level loads) are just not listed

This doesn't mean you can't use your powder, it just means they didn't bother to list it, because it (probably) doesn't deliver what most people are looking for.

[FoghornLeghorn]

Thanks for the clarification. I just thought Vihtavuori's data seemed odd because they do list N330 for both 38 special and for 357 magnum, but in 44 caliber, only for the 44 special.

It just seems odd.

But your explanation makes sense.

[Jim Watson]

44 Special loads in 44 Magnum case will work just as well as a .38 Special load in a .357 case. No starting at max though.
Vihtavuori N330 isn't a 'magnum' powder.

Why not? A maximum Special load is not going to be anywhere close to even a starting Magnum load.
N330 was reportedly formulated for 9mm P. Vihtavouri did not sell it retail in canister lots for some time after their other N3-- came on the market.

max COLs are about the same (1.615" for Special and 1.610" for Magnum).

I had not noticed that before.
But now I wonder, why is a S&W M29 Magnum cylinder longer than an M24 Special cylinder? Were they trying to stay on good terms with Elmer Keith whose Lyman 429421 SWC loads to 1.710" in Magnum brass?

[FoghornLeghorn]

Originally Posted by Jim Watson

Why not? A maximum Special load is not going to be anywhere close to even a starting Magnum load.

Yes, that was my thinking as well. But I have zero data for the VihtaVuori powders except for their webpage which, I assume, is hosted in Finland? Are we still allies with them?

Just kidding.

I've never used their powders and even with domestic powders, my reloading manuals from my college days in the 1970s, manufacturers have change processes, ingredients, parameters, such that it might not be safe to take a 2021 can of XYZ powder and use it according to 1956 load data.

Thanks for the clarification. I feel better about this powder.

[rclark]

I haven't looked at the max COL thing (not a big deal).... but the same bullet (say 240g SWC) in a .44 Mag case is going to have .125 more volume in the case if you use the crimp groove which most of do. That's why to duplicate a .44 Special load in the .44 Mag case, you need a little more powder. With Unique, it is about 1.0gr. Ie. 7.5g in .44Special (Skeeter Load) is equivalent to 8.5g in .44 Mag for same velocity (chronograph verifies this BTW).

[ciwsguy]

One thing I noticed when I loaded 44 special into 44 magnum cases is that if the load is too light, the case won’t expand completely to the chamber dimensions and you may get some combustion gases blowing back into the bolt. A telltail sign is cartridge cases have soot on the outside sometimes nearly the entire case length. I was using 12 grains of Bluedot under a 240 grain bullet.

Edit addition: another sign of a too light load is the the fired case will pass a chamber check gauge without resizing.

[44caliberkid]

I do it all the time, for cowboy action loads in a 44 Magnum Vaquero. I don't want the ring from the shorter special cases. I also pack 'em to within 1/8 of an inch of the case mouth with FFFG , topped with a Mav- Dutchman Biglube Boolit.

[Scorch]

I used to load 44 Mag to 1,000 fps with a cast 240 gr bullet using Unique. Very accurate. In order to really emulate 44 Special you would need to drop the speed a little more and lighten up the bullet, say a 200 grain semi-wadcutter at 950 fps. Should be doable. I would use Unique or Trail Boss due to its bulkiness so you get good load density.

[Jim Watson]

I thought emulating .44 Special would call for a 246 gr bullet at 740 fps.

[Metal god]

Ok you guys got me all worried now . I just started ( not even tested yet ) the 44 magnum cartridge and to be honest I had no idea about the seating depth "issue" .

I don't think this is a hi-jack but if it is sorry . First the only bullet I could find was a 240gr plated flat point with the designation 44special . It only has one crimp groove so I didn't give them a second thought . I assumed the 44special designation was simply a way for the manufacture ( everglades ) to make sure the velocity stayed below 1250fps which generally is the max recommended velocity for plated bullets .

Now I'm wondering if there is some other reason . To keep this with in the OP , although I'm not loading 44special charges in 44 mag cases . I am starting below 44 mag start charges and above 44special max charges in a 44 mag case . I'm also stopping well below 44mag max charges to stay at or below 1250fps . I have 2 different powders I'm trying in this manner , Unique and Win 231 . The idea is to produce some nice 44special +P+ ( not sure if that's a thing ) to light 44 mag loads in 44 mag cases .

I'm now slightly concerned 44spl/mag does not load like 38spl/357mag . I always use 357 brass in my 357 guns even when loading 38special charges . I assumed you can do the same with 44mag as well ???

FWIW my loads are

Same bullet for each 240gr .429 diameter PLFP

Unique charges are 8gr through 9.5gr

Win 231 charges are 7gr though 9gr

Standard primers

44mag cases ( mixed )

Seated to crimp groove with heavy-ish collet style crimp

Am I gtg ?

[FoghornLeghorn]

Originally Posted by Metal god

I'm now slightly concerned 44spl/mag does not load like 38spl/357mag . I always use 357 brass in my 357 guns even when loading 38special charges . I assumed you can do the same with 44mag...

RClark said,

Of course you can use .44 Special load data for the .44 Magnum. That is the beauty of reloading. You can load very mild to very wild in the .44 Mag case. Same goes with .38 Special and .357.

T. O'Heir said,

44 Special loads in 44 Magnum case will work just as well as a .38 Special load in a .357 case. No starting at max though.

I have pretty much been doing what you're asking for 40 some-odd years.
Unless I'm not understanding the question.

[rclark]

I'm now slightly concerned 44spl/mag does not load like 38spl/357mag .

As I said above. Same Same. Don't OVER THINK it. A light/moderate crimp in the crimp grove and your golden. No problem with the loads you listed. You are Good to Go.

[black mamba]

Yep, times 2 . . . certainly good to go!

[Metal god]

Cool thanks guys , all this seating depth case capacity talk had me over thinking it I guess .

[Unclenick]

If you crimp a 44 Mag case into a crimp groove intended for a 44 Special case, and if the bullet is a round nose design, it will be too long for a S&W 29 chamber and will stick out, but if you have a Ruger 1.750" long cylinder it won't. This is the reason Ruger makes the long cylinders. It gives you extra powder capacity with a 44 Special crimp groove.

Seating the bullet that way has the penalty that the standard 44 Special load will tend to underperform starting in the long case, but there are some funny exceptions to this, so you have to start low and work up just to be sure. Generally, though, it will need more powder seated long.

To check for compatibility with the shorter 44 Mag cylinders, just measure your finished COL. 1.610" is the maximum for 44 Mag for a gun you don't have. Your cylinder length is the maximum for a gun you do have, though be aware that recoil can back bullets out a little during firing and jam cylinder rotation, so I like to stay at least 0.010" short of the cylinder length to let the bullet start to move. In a heavy gun with 44 Special level loads, this won't likely be an issue. In a light gun it still can be.

[Metal god]

Cylinder



Loaded round , it's a flat point at 1.545 coal



Looks like I'll be gtg